Domestic Terror or just free trade?
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Last Post: AgoristTeen1994
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Domestic Terror or just free trade?
02-04-2012, 05:57 PM
Post: #1
Domestic Terror or just free trade?
This is encouraging, reported on CNN no less

http://money.cnn.com/video/pf/2012/01/26....cnnmoney/

If government services were valuable and the market wanted them, they wouldn't be provided on a compulsory basis.
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02-05-2012, 07:53 AM
Post: #2
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
There's been these time shares and time stores for a long time. And yes they work, but they tend to stay fairly small.

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02-05-2012, 08:27 AM (This post was last modified: 02-05-2012 08:50 AM by NonEntity.)
Post: #3
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
(02-05-2012 07:53 AM)WorBlux Wrote:  There's been these time shares and time stores for a long time. And yes they work, but they tend to stay fairly small.

And sadly they all seem to be Marxist in design (if I recall my theories correctly) and so are self limiting. They seem to equate time with value, so that one person's time spent digging a trench is worth the same amount of time invested by another as brain surgery or computer design. They tend to disallow people ("the market") from determining value subjectively, which of course is the only way that value can be determined.

Bitcoin, on the other hand... YAY BITCOIN! RAH RAH RAH

- NonE


(02-05-2012 08:27 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 07:53 AM)WorBlux Wrote:  There's been these time shares and time stores for a long time. And yes they work, but they tend to stay fairly small.

And sadly they all seem to be Marxist in design (if I recall my theories correctly) and so are self limiting. They seem to equate time with value, so that one person's time spent digging a trench is worth the same amount of time invested by another as brain surgery or computer design. They tend to disallow people ("the market") from determining value subjectively, which of course is the only way that value can be determined.

Bitcoin, on the other hand... YAY BITCOIN! RAH RAH RAH

- NonE


I'm also wondering... if you would consider 23 camels in trade for your thirteen year old daughter, how would that convert to Berkshire Bucks?

- NonE

- NonE .).

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03-04-2012, 10:13 AM
Post: #4
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
(02-05-2012 08:27 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 07:53 AM)WorBlux Wrote:  There's been these time shares and time stores for a long time. And yes they work, but they tend to stay fairly small.

And sadly they all seem to be Marxist in design (if I recall my theories correctly) and so are self limiting. They seem to equate time with value, so that one person's time spent digging a trench is worth the same amount of time invested by another as brain surgery or computer design. They tend to disallow people ("the market") from determining value subjectively, which of course is the only way that value can be determined.

Bitcoin, on the other hand... YAY BITCOIN! RAH RAH RAH

- NonE


(02-05-2012 08:27 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  
(02-05-2012 07:53 AM)WorBlux Wrote:  There's been these time shares and time stores for a long time. And yes they work, but they tend to stay fairly small.

And sadly they all seem to be Marxist in design (if I recall my theories correctly) and so are self limiting. They seem to equate time with value, so that one person's time spent digging a trench is worth the same amount of time invested by another as brain surgery or computer design. They tend to disallow people ("the market") from determining value subjectively, which of course is the only way that value can be determined.

Bitcoin, on the other hand... YAY BITCOIN! RAH RAH RAH

- NonE


I'm also wondering... if you would consider 23 camels in trade for your thirteen year old daughter, how would that convert to Berkshire Bucks?

- NonE

From my understanding it could work like Josiah Warren's Cinncinnati Tim Store worked...where one hour of work, in whatever you specialized in was equivalent to 12 pounds of corn...I think it was 12 pounds at least...so that could be potentially used. And while there ARE problems with the Labor Theory of Value it does have some potential usage I think....and besides if a community want's to use the Labor Theory of Value what's wrong with that?


- AgoristTeen1994

P.S. From my understanding of the aforementioned Cincinnati Time Store at least, if you and a person were using "labor notes" as some people call them, and you tried to sell, 6 hours of digging a trench as being equivalent in value to 6 hours of carpentry another guy was offering....you'd have a hard time getting people to sell things to you instead of the guy selling carpentry.

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03-04-2012, 10:39 AM
Post: #5
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
(02-05-2012 08:27 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  And sadly they all seem to be Marxist in design (if I recall my theories correctly) and so are self limiting.

Yeah. These "Marxism with robots" schemes all claim to solve the "calculation problem," but they don't hold up under intense scrutiny.

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But weak enough not to choose it
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03-04-2012, 11:38 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 12:03 PM by eye2i2hear.)
Post: #6
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
AgT, would you agree that there's not really much of a problem with using a medium of exchange* in paper form? Rather, that the problem e.g. FRNs is whether said medium is an optimal *store* of value? (another of course being that the medium is forced at the barrel of a gun to be the only available 1; another being that FRNs are only backed by a notion that doesn't exist ie has no factual backing!)

One proposal for money/mediums of exchange I've heard, is to base the store value upon several (i.e. 4-6) commodities*, rather than one or two. The primary objective being to prevent the classic "run on the bank" (in gold/silver standard days).
Another objective being to not have the scarcity limitation (and control) factor/potential.

Regarding the multi-commodity aspect, it seems to me we are doing precisely this with 'dollar' mediums when we shop at stores. Whether consciously or subconsciously, we're comparing items side by side as we peruse the likes of WallyWorld, BuyMore, and The Mall. In another sense, with all the ads and signs, the world is one big 'store'.

The central tenet being that something becomes a store of value by being something someone has had ("past" tense) to *spend* time and energy on (aka labor/work for; thus an investment) relative to something socially necessary, needed, or desired. There's just so darn many things one can do with their lives, but one being to goof off rather than work; in the Corn context, to eat now rather than store, plow, plant, grow, harvest, sell, and store. In the oil context, to cruise now but not drill, pump, refine, transport etc. In the gold/silver context, to bling now but not travel, search, pan/dig, transport, fashion, store=merchandize/sell. Cool

Noting too that gold and silver are commodities, where some defining terms of commodity are: convenience; accommodation; profit; benefit; advantage; interest.
Some quick (but not exhaustive) examples:
  • Corn carries the advantage of nutrition (and thus living!); some disadvantages are risky shelf life (spoilage) and impermanence (it's shortly dung!)
  • Gold/silver carries the benefit of longevity and accommodation (non-corrosive, malleable);
  • Paper carries the advantage and convenience of portability; gold/silver also carry the profit aspect (usage in tech), but which makes it (arguably) less practical as a store of value (market fluctuation) etc.
  • Oil/petroleum is a nice contemporary commodity to consider as one's 4-6 medium comparison items, in the interest aspect (because it's so global/common desire).
  • BitCoins carry advantage in the non-centralization (Authoritarian/Control) context; yet carry the disadvantage outside of current electronic 'worlds' (which with the likes of flash drives and readers, is at least improving some as we speak 'er type/read type.

Store notes then, whether ink upon paper or bytes upon a electronic disc, as certificates of assurance, work nicely as mediums of exchange.

It's pretty much amazed me (not to mention, scared the beejevus out of me) to realize how magical (illusional) the word money had been for me in the past, and how little thought I'd given in the past to how 'money' (minted/stamped as a commodity, thus a value assigned/assured) actually should work. Where by the word should, I simply mean relative to being logically consistent, principally here in the sense of optimally storing, and re-presenting the value of my time and energy; not only in the short term, but in the long haul.

[apologies, if relevant, for going long]


[* the word 'medium' is interesting for me though; many hear it and think "psychic"; but seeing as how value is but a state of mind arrived at via (personal) evaluation -tho the value can be spread akin to a meme- it 'works' for me in that sense; the word also historically has simply meant "middle", and there's "mediate", so in this context, it's simply a go between?

* regarding the commodity base, as I'm seeing it, BitCoin "goes there" via websites that record current exchanges aka "pricing" for comparison]


(02-05-2012 08:27 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  I'm also wondering... if you would consider 23 camels in trade for your thirteen year old daughter, how would that convert to Berkshire Bucks?

I'm a bit perplexed. 13 year old daughter 'humor' (attempt) aside, how is it any different from asking: how would that convert to BitCoin Bits?

Is the missing the point, that "conversion" is considered the key factor?

I personally [sic] find that much of what personal, individual (hence market) value is for one, is based upon how i fair in the general marketplace; particularly in the long haul. Arguably, there's a couple of ways considered of +value to go with here. Granted, it might not (or shouldn't be the case) on one or two items here or there (e.g. trying to tell me what a specific photo is 'worth'), but big picture [sic], I find it's essential.
Hence why (even) BitCoins has/have websites displaying exchanges ("rates"), and they being there because... 'er the market requires such, no? (or, on second thought, is such thinking but a carry over from too long in the Status quo...? hmmmm...)

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03-04-2012, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 01:20 PM by WorBlux.)
Post: #7
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
(03-04-2012 10:13 AM)AgoristTeen1994 Wrote:  From my understanding it could work like Josiah Warren's Cinncinnati Tim Store worked...where one hour of work, in whatever you specialized in was equivalent to 12 pounds of corn...I think it was 12 pounds at least...so that could be potentially used. And while there ARE problems with the Labor Theory of Value it does have some potential usage I think....and besides if a community want's to use the Labor Theory of Value what's wrong with that?


- AgoristTeen1994

P.S. From my understanding of the aforementioned Cincinnati Time Store at least, if you and a person were using "labor notes" as some people call them, and you tried to sell, 6 hours of digging a trench as being equivalent in value to 6 hours of carpentry another guy was offering....you'd have a hard time getting people to sell things to you instead of the guy selling carpentry. Otherwise prices are the only effective way to communicate the relative social utility of various resources.

That's not necessarily the problem. The problem is information about what is the best use of scarce resources. The scheme has to be small enough or arranged in a way so that someone can communicate "Hey guys we really have more than enough ditches, please find something else to do" Otherwise you end up with too many ditch-diggers and not enough carpenters.

So this really limits you to 150 people for a straight-up commune to 4500 for a cooperative business. 150 is about the maximum number of people that a person can understand as individual personalities.

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03-04-2012, 01:57 PM
Post: #8
RE: Domestic Terror or just free trade?
(03-04-2012 01:19 PM)WorBlux Wrote:  That's not necessarily the problem. The problem is information about what is the best use of scarce resources. The scheme has to be small enough or arranged in a way so that someone can communicate "Hey guys we really have more than enough ditches, please find something else to do" Otherwise you end up with too many ditch-diggers and not enough carpenters.

So this really limits you to 150 people for a straight-up commune to 4500 for a cooperative business. 150 is about the maximum number of people that a person can understand as individual personalities.

I'm not disagreeing to how it limits you....I'm just saying it CAN work a lot better than most modern economists believe it can. I don't know if it would limit you to the numbers you gave, but it would limit you...how much is as of now close to impossible, if not completely impossible to determine.

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