zonsb, Randi, homeopathy and reality

[eye2i2hear]

So NonEntity, what's your thought, regarding proof, on the aspirin 'theory' over the homeopathy 'theory' per the "Spanish Flu" epidemic?
(when you've had time to examine it of course)

[NonEntity]

(03-07-2012 12:01 PM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  So NonEntity, what's your thought, regarding proof, on the aspirin 'theory' over the homeopathy 'theory' per the "Spanish Flu" epidemic?
(when you've had time to examine it of course)

No offense intended, but I don't really care to delve into it again. I found the author's perspectives on vibrational patterns to be worthy of consideration. Another potential way of examining the way the world works. I don't claim to know the "truth," I'm just saying that this new perspective resonates with other things that I have heard which appear credible, and so I will keep it as one of many lenses I use with which I can examine new ideas. It is coherent with so many things I understand about the world. As to the Spanish Flu in particular? I don't know and whether or not it is or is not true, that does not change the fact that this theory appears to me to be worthy of consideration.

Zat werk 4 ewe?

- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

Zat werk 4 meye2?

Well, in one sense it'll hafta. Who am eye, afterall, a Statist for doG's sake?! In an other, not at all, really. No offense intended either.

I suppose/propose I had a bit in mind, nothing about "energy patterns in water", period. And more in mind that you'd noted the bit about your grandfather personally. That, and you yammered/hammered so about "proven".

My question here included nuttin' about energy patterned water. Rather, it's about the repeating of the 1918 SPF epidemic as support or proof or evidence of homeopathy having validity.

Quote:More other data: Just a day or two ago I read on NaturalNews.com (which tends to be less than totally objective as well as frequently inflammatory) some compilations of data which appear to very clearly show DRAMATIC positive results of homeopathic remedies, or at least prophylactic actions regarding disease.

Quote:NaturalNews.com Wrote:Homeopathy was 98% successful in treating the Spanish flu epidemic in 1918?
Yes.
Ohio reported that 24,000 cases of flu treated allopathically had a mortality rate of 28.2% while 26,000 cases of flu treated homeopathically had a mortality rate of 1.05% . In Connecticut, 6,602 cases were reported, with 55 deaths, less than 1%. Dr. Roberts, a physician on a troop ship during WWI, had 81 cases of flu on the way over to Europe. He reported, "All recovered and were landed. Every man received homeopathic treatment.

My grandfather died of this epidemic, so this hits home for me.

Whether NaturalNews.com has seen or read the contrary 'proof' evidence, being a huge factor -in a couple of ways- in my opinion. [see diff tween trials, and marketing techniques, 4-1]

So you know, whether it's blah blah or yada yada at this noble peace stage for you (ie you don't care to delve into it), well who am i to argue. Well, other than to ask how it differs from the proverbial fingers in the ears and "lalalalalalalah"? The data, and the assertions posted earlier --not so much. [and with a moments reflection, I suppose admittedly, I've persisted a bit in this, because it tends to be a pattern per the homeo topic, to be dredged up over and over; you know, sorta maybe like jet fuel and/or thermite with the twin towers...]

*again noting: my objective here in no way is in disagreement with keeping an open mind --to data; my original data post should actually establish my being obviously for that --ObaNobelPiecers, and all*

--skepticAsTheNorm2i

[NonEntity]

(03-07-2012 02:06 PM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Zat werk 4 meye2?

Well, in one sense it'll hafta. Who am eye, afterall, a Statist for doG's sake?! In an other, not at all, really.

Dude, (May I call you dude?)

I'm just presenting information I think may have value. I'm not trying to prove anything, as I am not convinced of the PROOF of anything. What I am is convinced that there is more to it than those who believe they have the TROOTH are willing to accept, and so I'm pointing to some interesting tidbits. I have run across several, lots, some (pick one) of references to stuff which all tend to point to the possibility that homeopathy may have some validity. I don't know. I've heard of "structured water" which I think is laughable, except that the more I hear about it from apparently rational and educated people who describe that it is true, causes me to at least consider that it might be. And the homeopathy stuff seems to coincide with the "structured water" stuff, which coincides with the not insignificant amount of data and research presented in the book I pointed to.

Of'ingKAY?, mr. authoritEYE?




- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

(03-07-2012 02:52 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  Dude, (May I call you dude?)

Or you can call me Ray... or you can call me Al...

(heck, you can even call me asshole; 'cause as noted elsewhere, I's pretty darn sure you wouldn't wanna live without me one) [or maybe you are, for all I know? is that what this is about?!? :@ ]

Quote:I'm just presenting information I think may have value.

And I feel I've (twice now) acknowledged that. So we good, Dude2?

Quote:I've heard of "structured water" which I think is laughable, except that the more I hear about it from apparently rational and educated people who describe that it is true, causes me to at least consider that it might be.

This might be taken to imply that I've not considered homeopathy and the Bird Spanish Flu of 1918 (from apparently rational and educated people/sources) --otherwise, I'm not sure why you keep hammering on it?

Just in case, and in the interest of noble peaceiery, you did catch that I narrowed my question the last time, right?

Quote:And the homeopathy stuff seems to coincide with the "structured water" stuff, which coincides with the not insignificant amount of data and research presented in the book I pointed to.

Granted, all that you are saying regarding structured water I have not an iota of data to say one way or the other about.
All I can do is apologize up front if my intuition/suspicion is totally amiss, but I just find you dodging or avoiding my core second question regarding 1918 SFE and homeopathic claims.

So long as I know you have the new data ON HOMEOPATHY prophets/adherents claims presented to you, of course, there's nuttin' much more I can add --to that.
*check* done.

I can only continue to find homeopathy =>laughable... along with those who toss about as fact (only) one side of the evidence regarding the 1918 SFE... ?
(and keep forefront in my mind that it's only hypothesis/speculation/hubris, thus far, that it has anything to do with energy pattern memory in water and/or structured water --as I anxiously await some actual practical data and evidence as to why I should even be paying it any attention).

AGAIN, I grasp why you're saying you brought the SFE/homeopath into the mix.

I'm simply not seeing any problem with addressing some (espoused?) data point specifically in the process. Kapeace (rhymes with kapeesh) head-banger?

Simma'down now~

--NonLaxative2i

ps: as far as any Mr. AUTHORiTeye, well, yeah, I authored this post (and mine before it etc etc).

pss: notes here too, that the Subject of this thread is... "structured water"...? hmpf, not so much. [not like a mere Subject stopped us before]

--highjack2i

[NonEntity]

(03-07-2012 03:46 PM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  pss: notes here too, that the Subject of this thread is... "structured water"...? hmpf, not so much. [not like a mere Subject stopped us before]

Subject? There's a SUBJECT? Doesn't that imply "someone who lives in a country that is controlled by a king or queen?"

King Marc? Hmph. Doesn't ring true. So that just goes to show that there is obviously no subject. It logically follows, just like the Congressman follows the young page, etc.

- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

lil i Wrote:[or maybe you are, for all I know? is that what this is about?!? :@ ]

[just as a point of clarification: this :@ was intended to represent some sum more major constipation (per not having an asshole)]



--RayAsshole2ihere

---

[CorrectionAuthoriti]

(03-07-2012 04:32 PM)NonEntity Wrote:  Hmph. Doesn't ring true. So that just goes to show that there is obviously no subject context in the world of NonEntitys.

[/CorrectionObvious]



[butt if NonEntity was a truck, he'd be a Dodge...??]

[eye2i2hear]

Interesting data/info, per Wikipedia on "water memory" (tho I haven't the foggiest if or how that connects to "structured water" nor "energy patterns in water"; it does however connect with homeopathy)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory

[the point I find significant on this aspect specifically, is that the re-testing uses the original claimants methods/testing]

One snippet:

Quote:Research published in 2005 on hydrogen bond network dynamics in water showed that "liquid water essentially loses the memory of persistent correlations in its structure" within fifty millionths of a nanosecond.

One sidebar: Randi was a part of some of the afore-mentioned retesting; the article notes that he placed his $1million reward into the mix. Which prompted the thought --probably because some prior scouring on the topic mentioned the $gazillions being spent on "Alternative" medicine: what does Randi likely stand to actually lose in putting the $1mill? After all, finding the science that actually validates would likely make it simply a nice investment (see "$gazillions" market), no? "Fraud, schtick, he can't afford to lose" -or- pretty wise investment/marketing strategy?

---

...meanwhile, on the notion of being open to change, with a connection to Silverstone/Blinded (with a bit of caveat regarding "journalism" or a bit of "artistic license" by the word artist --it is specified as a "book review" after all):

the sunday times writer John Nais Wrote:Some medical mumbo-jumbo actually true [sorta]
Magnets easing pain; healing vibes curing cancer; the Moon affecting your health...
Book review: Blinded By Science, by Matthew Silverstone (Lloyd's World Publishing). July 2011

No matter how many high-tech cures modern medicine brings us, alternative evangelists will always argue loudly that the true secrets of well-being lie in esoteric notions such as 'healing frequencies', magnets and astrological alignments.
The latest example of this is a book by Matthew Silverstone, a successful London businessman. He became fascinated by alternative medicine after seeing his 19-year-old son recover from a bout of chronic fatigue syndrome so severe that he did not even have the energy to talk to people.

Despite being a tough-minded businessman, Silverstone believes the cure was brought about by an alternative healer who recommended therapies such as feeling the energy given off by trees.

In the book, Blinded By Science, Silverstone claims to have discovered that the key to all health problems lies in the fact that 'everything vibrates - absolutely everything, from the nucleus of an atom to the molecules of our blood, our organs, our brain, light, sound, plants, animals, Earth, space, the universe'.
Silverstone claims that if we were to embrace 'vibrational medicine' by developing therapies based on sound waves, magnets, and the Moon's electromagnetic pull, we could cure all the world's ills.

Such ideas have long been dismissed as deluded mumbo-jumbo by mainstream science. But the fascinating fact is that science is now discovering that we really can cure an amazing array of illnesses - from erectile dysfunction to tumours - using precisely those 'mumbo-jumbo' vibrations and magnets.

Alternative-cure evangelists such as Silverstone are hardly vindicated, though. The fact is that today's scientists are using these forces in ways that the esoteric healers never imagined.

These new, high-tech therapies are a world apart from the unproven, ineffective and often dangerous ways in which they can be offered by (often rogue) practitioners.

So while the claims Silverstone makes for various therapies would be dismissed by most medics, for people interested in healing that uses vibrations or energy fields, we identify some of the more far-out health links that may not be entirely hocus-pocus.

VIBRATIONS

Alternative healers have long claimed that 'healing vibes' can cure everything from depression to cancer. Indeed, charlatans have used such claims to con gullible patients into handing over huge sums of money - and foregoing vital conventional therapies.

One notorious example is the Rife Machine, developed in the Thirties by Royal Rife, an American, who claimed it cured cancer by sending a beam of sound energy into patients' bodies. He said this would destroy tumours by hitting their cells' own particular frequency, in a similar way to opera singers shattering crystal glass with certain notes.

Rife's claims were entirely discredited by the medical profession in the Fifties, but in recent years, they've been revived.
In Silverstone's book, Rife is feted as a martyred genius.
And around the world alternative healers have begun offering treatments costing thousands of pounds for diseases such as cancer using Rife Machines. At least four people are known to have died in New Zealand and Australia after giving up standard therapy for treatment with similar machines.

In fact, an analysis by electronics experts in Australia has found that a typical Rife device consists of a nine-volt battery and two short copper tubes, which deliver an almost undetectable current unlikely to penetrate the skin.

Nevertheless, when used as part of high-tech medical science, sound vibrations really are proving to have curative powers, as pioneering studies show. For example, U.S. scientists are using pulses of ultrasound to treat brain conditions such as epilepsy and Parkinson's.

Their laboratory experiments show that precisely-targeted pulses can change the way specific brain cells work, either stimulating them (which has potential for Parkinson's, where brain cells die off), or knocking them out of action (which could help tackle the over-exciteable cells in epilepsy). Pulsed ultrasound promises new approaches for treating such diseases without any invasive brain surgery, explains William Tyler, a neuroscientist at Arizona State University, who is leading the experiments.

'Our method paves the way for using sound waves to diagnose and treat brain dysfunction,' he says. Ultrasound is also being pioneered as an NHS treatment for prostate cancer. A system called High Intensity Focused Ultrasound burns out cancer cells with a powerful beam of sound waves. The sound vibrations vibrate the cells so rapidly that they heat up and burn out. The system is being used in five NHS units, including University College Hospital London.

The hope is that it avoids common side-effects of conventional treatments for prostate cancer, such as incontinence and impotence.
Sound vibrations may even be used as a drug-free cure for erectile dysfunction. Israeli scientists are pioneering the use of low-intensity acoustic shock to stimulate the growth of healthy blood vessels in the penis.

In a recent study in the Journal of European Urology, 20 middle-aged volunteers all showed significant improvement six months after the treatment. Half no longer needed to take Viagra-type pills.

MAGNETS

Magnets - or lodestones, as they used to be called - are another favourite 'mystical' cure-all promoted by alternative medicine for everything from arthritis to insomnia. Supporters believe our bodies form an electromagnetic field that responds to the healing power of magnets.

In his book, Silverstone repeats a claim often used by sellers of these items - that Nasa spacemen have magnets sewn into their space suits to prevent bone-thinning and calcium loss while travelling beyond the Earth's magnetic field. In fact, Nasa has rubbished this claim publicly.

Furthermore, numerous studies in medical journals show there is little evidence for magnets having any real effect stronger than sham placebo therapies. But while natural magnets have largely failed to fulfil their mystical promise, electromagnets - which generate magnetism when electricity is passed through wires - are opening up whole new fields of medical treatment.

The most promising is brain therapy, treating a whole range of serious problems, from dementia to schizophrenia. The system used is called transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS). It works because the brain operates using electric signals, and it is possible to alter these signals by subjecting them to electromagnetic pulses.

This month, for example, U.S. scientists found that electromagnetic pulses can repair some of the devastating brain damage wrought by strokes.

Patients whose speech had been affected became significantly more fluent after transcranial magnetic stimulation had been applied to part of the brain known to control language.

This approach has also been found to help some people who suffer from depression so deep that drugs won't treat it. A trial of 190 patients in the authoritative journal Archives of General Psychiatry found that the treatment helped 14 per cent of them. Each volunteer wore a helmet with a magnetic coil for 30 minutes a day for three weeks.

Also this month, Italian scientists found that transcranial magnetic stimulation can block pain in ways that should promise new therapies for migraine headaches, reports the Journal of Headache and Pain. There are broader concerns about electromagnetic stimulation, however. In a few patients, it seems to have induced fainting or fits. But further research is needed to confirm this.

MOON MEDICINE

There may even be some medical truth in one of the most literally far-out claims - the belief that the Moon affects our health. Silverstone claims the Moon's gravitational pull on the water in our bodies can affect our sleep patterns and cause insomnia. He also suggests it may influence the timing of women's menstrual cycles.

This month, the Urology Journal published evidence from a study of 1,481 patients indicating that renal colic - a type of pain commonly caused by kidney stones - seems to increase significantly at the time of the Full Moon.

Previous research has revealed a number of statistical links between health and the Moon's phases. Two years ago, for example, a study in the Medical Journal of Australia suggested that violent and acute behavioural disturbances among mental-health patients are more common with a Full Moon. The lunar effect, also known as the 'Transylvania hypothesis', has long aroused fascination. But why would it work?

As well as the Moon's gravitational pull on living organisms, theories suggest the effect may be due to the way the Moon alters the Earth's magnetic field. Sceptics say that such effects are tiny compared with our more immediate environment.

But the research is further supported by the doctors' newspaper Pulse in 2000, where Dr Peter Perkins, a Bournemouth GP, says his interviews with 79 general practitioners show their emergency calls increase by 3 per cent when there is a Full Moon, and drop to 6 per cent below average during a New Moon.

But perhaps any lunar influence may come down to something simpler than invisible forces. It may be caused by light levels. The light provided by a Full Moon is up to 16 times greater on cloudless nights than at other lunar phases. Researchers at University College London have discovered that the number of epileptic seizures - which are related to electrical activity in the brain - goes down when the Moon is at its brightest.

'These findings suggest that epileptic seizures are less likely to occur on brighter nights,' says Dr Sallie Baxendale of the Institute of Neurology who led the study. She believes the effect of the hormone melatonin, secreted only at night and in the dark, may be implicated.

© Daily Mail, Londona
http://sundaytimes.lk/110717/Timestwo/t2_08.html

[black text] mine -eye2i2]

(actual cause & effect, and all that...)

---

butt to get back to something that really matters:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXyFy7ixr10

[NonEntity]

Not to dismiss any of the potentially credible dismissals of the reported evidence in this article, I have to point out two things which are SO FAR out of whack with reality that they are laughable, yet people take this s*** seriously.

(03-09-2012 08:48 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Indeed, charlatans have used such claims to con gullible patients into handing over huge sums of money - and foregoing vital conventional therapies.

(emphasis mine)

HUGE sums? Uh, put in the context of the money spent on "AIDS" or that spent in the pharmaceutical industries, or even that spent on any individual's health insurance? This is like comparing a VERY VERY VERY large amoeba to a redwood tree.

Secondly, note that the insertion of the word "vital" totally presumes the validity of one form while emotionally rejecting as silly the other form. This is not reporting information, it is emotional manipulation with specific intent.

Sigh.

eye2i2hear Wrote:In fact, an analysis by electronics experts in Australia has found that a typical Rife device consists of a nine-volt battery and two short copper tubes, which deliver an almost undetectable current unlikely to penetrate the skin.

Note that the author of the article uses a potentially fraudulent device to supposedly debunk an entire field of research which is only tangentially connected by the act of fraudulent representation.

Sigh 2.

Thanks for the post, Eye2. Interesting stuff if only to show the inherent bias.

As to the magnetic stuff, I personally use an Emprobe pulsed electromagnetic field device on joint pains. I've been using it for years and am absolutely positive that it is effective in healing whatever condition is causing my pain. True, I'm only one case, but for me I've used it long enough to know that there is no question of a direct correlation to the effect this device provides. Fortunately the government drove the creator of this device out of business so that no one else may be harmed by this simple, cheap and effective cure. (Meanwhile veterinarians have used this modality effectively for years and continue to do so on very expensive equines.)

- NonE

[eye2i2hear]

(03-09-2012 10:07 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  Not to dismiss any of the potentially credible dismissals of the reported evidence in this article,

Duly noted... but:

Quote:

(03-09-2012 08:48 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Indeed, charlatans have used such claims to con gullible patients into handing over huge sums of money - and foregoing vital conventional therapies.

(emphasis mine)

HUGE sums? Uh, put in the context of the money spent on "AIDS" or that spent in the pharmaceutical industries, or even that spent on any individual's health insurance? This is like comparing a VERY VERY VERY large amoeba to a redwood tree.

Indeed, it is subjective and up to the reader, but for my 2cents worth, I read that just as easily in the context of individuals, not corporations and/or taxpayers money spent*. The general rub I hear you making doesn't carry enough emphasis, for my concern, on who the typical marketed individuals are with 'Alternatives': those who are too often enough one's who are emotionally wrought (due to their horrendous personal circumstances i.e. conditions) who are at least to some degree, in the least need of 'wasting' money. To those individuals it IS HUGE. (but maybe that's my glasses lenses color) *[not to diminish at all the original sources of those dollars being individuals as well, ultimately, of course]

[/seeking some context and balance]

Quote:Secondly, note that the insertion of the word "vital" totally presumes the validity of one form while emotionally rejecting as silly the other form. This is not reporting information, it is emotional manipulation with specific intent.

Sigh.

Sigh2
(hence, my "caveat" inclusion)

Quote:

eye2i2hear Wrote:In fact, an analysis by electronics experts in Australia has found that a typical Rife device consists of a nine-volt battery and two short copper tubes, which deliver an almost undetectable current unlikely to penetrate the skin.

Note that the author of the article uses a potentially fraudulent device to supposedly debunk an entire field of research which is only tangentially connected by the act of fraudulent representation.

Sigh 2.

*sigh*2
Guess such is in the eye of the beholder2. I didn't come away with what you did on this point at all (so what else is new?).

Perhaps because the author said this specifically (tho earlier): "...the fascinating fact is that science is now discovering that we really can cure an amazing array of illnesses - from erectile dysfunction to tumours - using precisely those 'mumbo-jumbo' vibrations and magnets."

--NonE(motional)2i (haha --right-right-right)

[NonEntity]

(03-09-2012 11:07 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  

Quote:

(03-09-2012 08:48 AM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  Indeed, charlatans have used such claims to con gullible patients into handing over huge sums of money - and foregoing vital conventional therapies.

(emphasis mine)

HUGE sums? Uh, put in the context of the money spent on "AIDS" or that spent in the pharmaceutical industries, or even that spent on any individual's health insurance? This is like comparing a VERY VERY VERY large amoeba to a redwood tree.

Indeed, it is subjective and up to the reader, but for my 2cents worth, I read that just as easily in the context of individuals, not corporations and/or taxpayers money spent*. The general rub I hear you making doesn't carry enough emphasis, for my concern, on who the typical marketed individuals are with 'Alternatives': those who are too often enough one's who are emotionally wrought (due to their horrendous personal circumstances i.e. conditions) who are at least to some degree, in the least need of 'wasting' money. To those individuals it IS HUGE. (but maybe that's my glasses lenses color) *[not to diminish at all the original sources of those dollars being individuals as well, ultimately, of course]

[/seeking some context and balance]

Context and balance:

Your point is perfectly valid. But. (<--- that always indicates that I just contradicted what I sed before, doesn't it?) What I was attempting to indicate is the aggregate amounts spent. There are huge sums extracted from the population via taxation and inflation and such which fund massive medical establishments with a lot to lose. The apparent cost to each individual supporting this system may appear to be small, but if one were to examine all of the extractions from taxes, employer's contributions to insurance and so on, I think you would find it to be mind bogglingly large. If you then compare the TOTAL amount of all monies spent on these alternative forms of health research and care, well, again, I'd compare it to a very, VERY, VERY, large amoeba versus a redwood tree.

It's kinda like the road grader versus the ant hill.

Does that better make my point?

- NonE