QotD: Thomas Paine
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QotD: Thomas Paine
04-06-2011, 09:23 AM
Post: #1
QotD: Thomas Paine
Thomas Paine Wrote:"The earth, in its natural, uncultivated state was, and ever would have continued to be, the common property of the human race." As the land gets cultivated, "it is the value of the improvement, only, and not the earth itself, that is in individual property. Every proprietor, therefore, of cultivated lands, owes to the community a ground-rent...to every person, rich or poor...because it is in lieu of the natural inheritance, which, as a right, belongs to every man, over and above the property he may have created, or inherited from those who did.
--Thomas Paine 1796 (author of Common Sense)
"owes to the community" = any individual who makes the request personally, based upon equal need/claim?
"a right" = the logical, rational and reasoned point/claim?
"earth" = the dirt/land (aka what's most popularly, legally propertied)?

"Forum winners are those who understand the power of triggered emotions and that the sole purpose of an argument is to stray as far as humanly possible from issues and to stay laser focused on belittling your rival with the choicest of pejoratives." ~Srini Chandra
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04-06-2011, 09:32 AM
Post: #2
Re: QotD: Thomas Paine
Thomas "Tom" Paine (February 9, 1737 [O.S. January 29, 1736[1]] – June 8, 1809) was an author, pamphleteer, radical, inventor, intellectual, revolutionary, and one of the Founding Fathers of the United States.[2][3] He has been called "a corsetmaker by trade, a journalist by profession, and a propagandist by inclination."[4]

The thought of how far the human race would have advanced absent initiatory force
staggers the imagination.

THE POINT: Unlike the government thief, a common thief doesn't claim his "craft" is honest.
Lawyer-like dishonesty a point: The common thief is honest when he tells you he's robbing you.
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04-06-2011, 08:34 PM
Post: #3
Re: QotD: Thomas Paine
I have no problem with what Mr. Pain stated. My only question is; Who gets to decide what that rent or tax should be and how much? And if you can prove (show) who gets to decide? Then I want you to show me what document or agreement that I signed or agreed to to pay or rent or what ever, which of course does not exist......

This is Thomas Pain's opinion and we know all about opinions, don't we?

;D
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04-06-2011, 10:15 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2014 06:47 AM by eye2i2hear.)
Post: #4
Re: QotD: Thomas Paine
crazy in crazyland Wrote:I have no problem with what Mr. Pain stated.
If I may ask, do you mean no problem with his reasoning, or, rather you have no problem with him expressing his impractical, to impossible position?
Quote:My only question is; Who gets to decide what that rent or tax should be and how much? And if you can prove (show) who gets to decide?
Well, just about anyone with a vested interest and/or the stamina to back it up?
Quote:Then I want you to show me what document or agreement that I signed or agreed to to pay or rent or what ever, which of course does not exist......
Well, as it is with most conflict, it gets down to negotiation. I certainly don't attest to having the easy answer(s). [I honestly don't know Mr. Paine's opinion regarding how such would flesh out --anymore tho, than I now know how voluntary society would/will... nor do I find any factual difference in what appears to be yet further opinion, that some document or agreement matters, as fact...?]

One consideration is to ask someone: hey, when you decided (it was mere opinion, after all) to work (invest in) the land, could you not anticipate the equal claims of others regarding that opportunity? (add in here the likelihood of another's opinion about the rule of first come first served, and/or might making right, and/or Law of the jungle, and/or let a Jury of one's Peers judge such, and/or let a group of individuals called Voters and Their elected Legislator's opinions rule --and who decides, of course?)

The first established fact in nature is that which is mandated equally upon each of us: we're all spit out from our mother's, in time and place specific, tho random, with the eventual minimum of mandate of approximately (or literally) 2ft (two feet, 'standing') [see the law of gravity]. Next comes the laws regarding sleeping (add 2 to 5 feet to the first 2ft, and call it 'bed'), sustenance/eating/drinking, urinating/defecating, bathing, and etc --the basics, and their logical, rational extensions (e.g sanitation, hunting, gathering, farming).

Do any have anything other than opinion-based claims of authority/right to prevent or reduce any of that for any other (beyond their own nature mandated equitable needs)? This instance? Today? Tomorrow? Regardless of time or place? [the essence of this is: if one owns their own body (at birth and thereafter), as inalienable (logically, rationally), then the natural necessities for maintaining it are equally unalienable (at birth and thereafter); thus for any human to be denied land certain, is to deny them their body certain, aka to make them a slave to some degree of the land-claimers]

Anything more long term than those is inherently dependent upon rational and reasoned negotiation (voluntary society), or, some degree of conflict/war (Statehood). In hopes of logic, reason, and rationale being the easier choice (otherwise, The State carries on anyways), here's hoping that'll be the choice for whatever the opinion's basis --from all 'sides'.

Any choice to exclude or limit another's equitable naturally imposed interests, short or long term, regarding the natural basics comes, logically, with a cost/price, no? Reason presents that for acknowledgment (and acceptance?) from the git go, timeless, no?

Is such easy? pleasant? popular? the status quo?
Hardly. (hell, apart from some serious evolutionary change, it's sure not likely; but then, neither is No-State)
But those seem hardly The Question, in reality, regarding opinion(s). Rather it be asked: is it fair? libertarian? equitable? logical? reasoned? (with "Is it voluntary" tossed in way down the list, only to piss NonEntity off...)
Quote:This is Thomas Pain's opinion and we know all about opinions, don't we?
Yupp. Only problem with taking that line is that we also know the choosing to do anything with the land (like, say, calling it "mine" aka "Property") is equally based upon opinion, don't we? As is the opinion to shoot one claiming such as being anything but opinion. [deja'vu here? been there, done that, mankind?]

I can only offer, that Mr. Paine's reasoning seems --well, logically reasoned. What opinions to choose regarding the next step? In the Landowners (claim) case, it's either settle up, move over, or go to war. Those were and are the knowable options through and through.
If I'm his neighbor (my RV-teepee parked in proximity), I'll work to reasonably assist in seeing that he and the new arrival can come to terms. If not, I'll likely favor the new arrival --unless he too is being unreasonable (my opinion, of course). Determining to what degree I'll disassociate with either, being based on how unreasonable one or the other is regarding equity and fairness (that and how much of a coward I ashamedly might be).

Such does boil down to opinion, but it seems the opinion that's most convincing towards peace/harmony is the one most based upon logic, reason, and rationale. With some of the more emotional issues hindering that, being Tradition, Culture, status quo, indoctrination, dogma, and the likes. Ask some of the Indian Nations of circa 17-18th century native Americans (aka "The Savages").

"Forum winners are those who understand the power of triggered emotions and that the sole purpose of an argument is to stray as far as humanly possible from issues and to stay laser focused on belittling your rival with the choicest of pejoratives." ~Srini Chandra
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04-05-2014, 03:05 AM
Post: #5
RE: QotD: Thomas Paine
He has good write. I agree with him.
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