NonE's call about self-ownership
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NonE's call about self-ownership
08-14-2012, 01:57 PM
Post: #122
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership
Wow!

While NonE picks up the pieces of his exploded head I'll throw in my two bits. NonE and I are old verbal combatants from years back. I have a deep respect for NonE even though we may have driven each other to drink over the subject of ownership. I love Marc’s show but here is the problem (and Zonsb I mean no disrespect). The reality of the situation was (which Marc pointed out) there was only a couple of minutes left of the show. This subject (as you can see by the length of posts here) is not easily condensed into a couple of minutes.

NonE’s Magical Entity from the Flying Spaghetti Monster Universe is not without merit. Though it may have seemed an amusing (non-answer) NonE answer, it is in a way true. We have, from the moment we were born through our exiting this plane of existence, experienced the world through this vessel (body) we call “me”.

We want to claim this vessel (because we can control its movement, actions, non-actions, interactions, etc.) as our property, which we extrapolate as “Self Ownership (or in other words we believe we “OWN” this vessel we perceive we exist in). Yet, even the statement “My Body” indicates separateness. Examine and compare “My Car”, “My House”, etc. Do you agree that you and (the object you perceive you own) your “CAR” are not physically one? If someone takes your (alleged) “CAR” and you never find it again, do you still own it? Did they steal YOU? Of course not, that would be silly. They didn’t steal “YOU” they took an object that you perceive belonged to you or you believed you owned.

The assertion (belief with no underlying factual support) that we “OWN” (illusion or mental construct) this body can easily be broken. Example: Someone, lets say a doctor, for arguments sake, paralyzes your (alleged) body with a drug (for medicinal purposes or otherwise) you are fully conscious but you no longer control your body (vessel or alleged property). Your breathing is assisted; your bowel movements are regulated outside of your control; no signal from your brain will allow you to move any extremity. Your body feels, sees, tastes, smells and hears nothing. Whether you eat or not is dictated from outside what you consider your property. Whether or not someone tattoos your buttocks with “I Love Lucy”, sticks tulips in your nostrils, has unwanted sex with the vessel you perceive you own is completely beyond your control.

Do you “OWN” that vessel you call your body? If the answer is yes, “Who or what is the “YOU” that claims ownership?” It certainly cannot be your “BODY” because that is the thing “YOU” is claiming ownership of. So it must be separate from the “YOU”.

As Mike pressed NonE by asking, “Who was it that decided that you were going to do that? [silent pause, waiting for response] Was it you? I side with NonE. I don’t know what or who “YOU” is. “YOU” could just as easily be a Magical Entity from the Flying Spaghetti Monster Universe as anything. If Mike had asked, “Was it your BODY that decided that you were going to do that? Was it your BODY? Then NonE could have easily answered. “NO!” and he would have been correct.

What Mike failed to explore was the mythical “YOU” when he asked NonE that question. Mike assumed everyone understood who or what “YOU” is. Everyone assumes they understand what “YOU” is, but I challenge you to explain what “YOU” is or means.

Let’s explorer further, as an experiment, do this mental exercise. Imagine that you are in space. Now imagine you have a huge bag into which you can put things. It is infinitely large. Let’s start by taking everything you believe you own and putting it in the bag. So take all your books, computer, car, house, body (because we have already determined that your body is not you), all of your possessions go into the bag. Next take everything you perceive about you and put those in the bag. This means your opinions, beliefs, values, who or what you think you stand for, all the things you think you are…into the bag they go. Take all your history, experiences, learning, memories, relationships and everything you think you know or understand and place them in the bag. Wait a minute; we forgot you were in space. So take the earth below you, the sun, the planets, comets stars…heck the whole dang universe. Shove all that in the bag. Now that you have everything stuffed in the bag tie a big knot in the bag so nothing can fall out.

Now look at the bag. The WHO, WHAT or THING looking at the bag is “YOU” whatever that is.

You may reply, “That’s crazy. We all know our minds and bodies are one.” Okay, what is your mind? Do you own your mind? You might say, “My mind is me!” Really? If your mind is you then how can you own it? If your mind is YOU then it just is and doesn’t require ownership because no one else could control it. It would have to be separate of the Mythical YOU in order for YOU to claim ownership.

The thing you call your mind can also be acted upon by outside influences. Drugs, others opinions, laws, traditions, religions, ethnicity, mental illness, electroshock therapy, can all influence the thing called your mind. Dang, that “My Mind.” Doesn’t that indicate ownership? So who or what is the “YOU” claiming ownership?

You may say, “Well look at the evidence. When I die all of that goes away! My mind & body depart this earth.” Well I don’t know about your mind but there’s empirical evidence your body remains here. I might decide to dig you up so I know your body doesn’t leave it just changes states. In fact it never leaves.

By the way, that whole ownership thing is irrelevant once your body dies. You can no longer claim ownership. So did ownership ever really exist? What about “your mind”? Do you lose it when you die?

So if NonE was stuck for an answer when Mike asked him if it was “YOU”, I certainly would have been too. “YOU” is that thing you cannot name so it is called “YOU” by what?
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Messages In This Thread
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Kel - 10-29-2011, 07:23 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Kel - 10-29-2011, 09:03 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Kel - 10-29-2011, 10:09 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Kel - 10-29-2011, 10:48 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Kel - 10-30-2011, 02:00 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Jonathanr - 10-30-2011, 08:09 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - soveREIGN - 11-01-2011, 04:51 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Kel - 11-08-2011, 08:42 PM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - Jonathanr - 11-20-2011, 04:34 AM
RE: NonE's call about self-ownership - tharrin - 08-14-2012 01:57 PM
RE: Celebrate...celebrate... - eye2i2hear - 10-01-2012, 02:15 PM

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