Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
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Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
02-07-2012, 10:06 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 10:07 AM by hazek.)
Post: #1
Lightbulb Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
Rights don't exist. They are just mirrors and smoke. What actually exist is nature, our bodies, our lives and our private property.
Those are the facts.

I mean how do we expect people to respect our bodies, our lives and our private property if their obligation towards us is merely an illusion? If I say "I would like to do with my body what I want" and someone with a gun comes along that I'm not prepared to resists and he says "you will do with your body as I say or I'll shot you" please tell me how are the illusionary rights going to stop him? I know how! By having some 3rd party go after that person if he doesn't respect these illusionary rights! And voila, you get the foundational argument for the state and all sorts of rights(house, education, job, social security, ect). Congrats!

Well what if there was another way? What if instead of relying on an illusion we stick to the facts? The fact is we have our body, our life and our private property but what we don't have is an agreement with other people about how they'll behave towards our body, our life and our private property. And without an agreement how can anyone be really held accountable?

Right now we rely on the illusionary rights that are a quasi agreement between people but since rights are an illusion so is this quasi agreement itself! The only way I know how such an agreement wouldn't be an illusion is if we get an agreement of two particular parties. A contract!



I have this idea which I think would/could eventually actually bring about a voluntary society. Imagine if every single person on this planet signs a contract with the rest of us that he will respect our ownership of our bodies, that he will respect our lives and that he will respect our ownership of our private property. This agreement although comparable to the illusionary rights would then actually be a fact, a very important distinction! It would/could also contain the before agreed to punishments in case this person broke the contract! And this contract would/could be enforceable by any court of law! Wouldn't it be great? No more illusions about how people should behave towards one another but cold hard facts ebodied by an agreement they personally agreed to?


Is this idea feasible? Could we achieve something like it building off of todays reality? I toyed around with this idea about how one could make it stick:

First we would need to create a corporation to sign these contract on behalf of all other human beings. A contract cannot be valid unless it's between at least two consenting parties. In this case the two parties would be an individual and this corporation(since obviously you can't have "every other human being" as a party to a contract). The corporation would have some moral rules it accepted as good as it's guide on what kind of contracts it would sign with individuals. Once someone signs this contract and if they break it the person who they broke it against could through this corporation sue in civil court for damages(I don't know exactly how this would/could work but I'm sure a lawyer could find a way under today's laws to make a contract like that stick and also make it so that the injured party could only use the corporation if they themselves signed the exact same contract - they can't hold someone else to a higher standard than themselves type of a deal...). Eventually those who signed this contract running a business could set as a requirement to be employed by them to sign this contract, maybe even to do business with only those who signed it. Businesses could offer discounts and special deals to signatories. Bottom line a small minority could slowly start to incentivize their community to also sign the same contract and slowly bring about an agreement within the community based on cold hard facts of how everyone should behave to one another without relying on illusionary rights.


Why is this important, a theoretical example:
Say for the sake of argument we get Peter to sign such a contract. Peter a year later after singing this contract decides to become a law enforcement officer. One day massive protests are held in Peter's town and he is tasked to join the riot police force. Say Peter has a bad day, or his superiors give him an order to remove a protester from the street. The protester doesn't want to move so Peter uses force against him using pepper spray and a batton breaking his arm and damaging his eyes and lungs. Now according to the government Peter did nothing wrong even though a third party observer could objectively conclude that he trampled on the protester's illusionary rights and hurt his body.. The protester thanks to relying on his illusionary rights wouldn't have had a way to seek justice but a friend recognized Peter and told the protester about the contract he signed. The protester looks up the corporation, signs a contract and sues Peter in civil court for damages.. The end result? Even though Peter was protected by the state laws he was bound by a contractual law to every human being to not do what he did and was held accountable.


I think this is a great idea and I think we should stop theorizing and merely talking about a voluntary society, or how the state isn't needed, or how we can have a peaceful and prosperous society without it, and start actually acting like it by only sticking to the facts. We should also stop explaining to brainwashed people that there is no such thing as a social contract but create our own actual social contract singed by every single one of us as an example and ask those who would like to pretend they are moral to follow suit.


So I ask you, do you like this idea? Would you be willing to sign such a contract?
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02-07-2012, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 10:36 AM by NonEntity.)
Post: #2
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
FAX???

Man you are SO out of date. It's a new century! We have email, and PDFs and all sorts of stuff like that. Get with it!

(Sorry, some times I just lose all control.)


- NonE
(02-07-2012 10:06 AM)hazek Wrote:  Rights don't exist. They are just mirrors and smoke.

Agreed!

hazek Wrote:I don't know exactly how this would/could work but I'm sure a lawyer could find a way...

Man oh MAN, you have SO not been paying attention! Big GrinBig GrinBig Grin



hazek Wrote:So I ask you, do you like this idea? Would you be willing to sign such a contract?

Not on your life.

I think the thing to be realized is that life is fluid, and each life is unique, each moment is unique, and each life is priceless - at least to the one living it. The best thing that I've come to understand is that all issues come down to conflict resolution. There are no "rights," there are no "truths," there are only people (and other critters) living their lives and interacting with each other. If we treat each other with respect (which requires the ability to empathize) and attempt to see the other's position when we are faced with a conflict, then we will have done that best that can be done.

As is said, there is no way to peace, peace IS the way.

Contracts, laws, rights and so on are static. Life is not. Therein lies the problem with this kind of thinking.

- NonE

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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02-07-2012, 10:49 AM
Post: #3
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
What better way is there for conflict resolution then a pre-agreed upon resolution in the form of a contract?
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02-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Post: #4
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 10:49 AM)hazek Wrote:  What better way is there for conflict resolution then a pre-agreed upon resolution in the form of a contract?

I would suggest that the "pre-agreed" idea right there is the flaw. Pre-agreed, in my mind, implies omniscience, which of course no one has, or can ever have.

I've studied Somali Customary Law to a certain extent and found it to be the most reasonable and realistic means of dealing with life's conflicts, at least in theory. You may want to do some reading on this as I think you might find it a refreshing view.

By the way, I forgot to say HELLO and WELCOME to the forum.

In the Somali model, all interactions are on a voluntary basis, including judicial matters and restitution. Each issue is unique, and is handled in an individual manner. One thing to realize is that there is no perfect world, no perfect solution. There will always be conflict. Conflict does not mean bad, it just reflects that each of us is different and we are social creatures who enjoy and depend upon each other.

I think the flaw in much of our thinking is some form of idea that there IS a right way of doing things. There is NOT. All life is a matter of ... well, it's like a dance. Or jazz. It's fluid, always moving and changing and we never quite know where it's going until we get to that particular place in the music, and by then it's gone and we're working out the next riffs.

- NonE

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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02-07-2012, 11:44 AM
Post: #5
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
Ditto NonE... I may burn in hell for that!
Peace
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02-07-2012, 11:58 AM
Post: #6
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 11:44 AM)notavoter Wrote:  Ditto NonE... I may burn in hell for that!
Peace

As WELL YOU SHOULD!!!

Big Grin

- NonE

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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02-07-2012, 12:15 PM
Post: #7
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
hazek:

Sorry, but what you describe sounds like some kind of dystopian nightmare. You’re making things way too complicated. I think the ancient Stoics had it right: “wake up your mind that nothing is of any import save to do what your own nature directs, and to bear what the world’s nature sends you.” I would throw in adherence to the non-aggression principle, of course. It really is that simple-- no need for formal contracts, no muss, no fuss.

But at least you're thinking about freedom, and that's a good thing.

He's noble enough to know what's right
But weak enough not to choose it
He's wise enough to win the world
But fool enough to lose it
He's a New World man - Rush
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02-07-2012, 07:45 PM (This post was last modified: 02-07-2012 07:48 PM by eye2i2hear.)
Post: #8
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 11:14 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  I think the flaw in much of our thinking is some form of idea that there IS a right way of doing things. There is NOT. All life is a matter of ... well, it's like a dance. Or jazz. It's fluid, always moving and changing and we never quite know where it's going until we get to that particular place in the music, and by then it's gone and we're working out the next riffs.

And I'll counter offer that there is a flaw in your thinking, revealed in the very metaphors (or are they analogies?) found significant. What distinguishes 'dance' from 'movement'? (see "dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee"?)
And what establishes 'jazz' rather than 'noise'? (good thing you used jazz instead of rap, or this one wouldn't even work! j/k Snoop goD)

And how does what distinguishes those, not also distinguish 'association' --equally, in a 'pre' (contract/meeting of the minds in the moment) sense?

Is there a 'right' to dance?
Is there a 'right' to jazz?
"right" merely in an agreement sense... a value sense.

I think (?) all I'm saying here, is it's less than the original post and more than your's... (but in light of current State of affairs, I prefer erring to your 'side'/dancing to your beating)

--NonPditty2i

ps: and obviously, the OPer hasn't gotten to the infamous "Property" thread, per:
Quote:Rights don't exist. They are just mirrors and smoke. What actually exist is nature, our bodies, our lives and our private property.
Those are the facts.
Otherwise, he'd know, that "Private Property" is no more a fact than are Rights... the fax be damned! :rolleyes:

Is it voluntary? (because if it isn't, what inherently is it?)
And can it be voluntary, if there's indoctrination, intimidation, coercion, threats & initiation of violence?
[not to be confused with asking: can it be said to be "voluntary" even when such is present.?]
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02-07-2012, 08:09 PM
Post: #9
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 11:14 AM)NonEntity Wrote:  I think the flaw in much of our thinking is some form of idea that there IS a right way of doing things. There is NOT. All life is a matter of ... well, it's like a dance.

Well, NonE, it's like what the Zen farmer says: "Life is like the scissors-paper-stone game... None of the answers is always right, but each one sometimes is."

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

He's noble enough to know what's right
But weak enough not to choose it
He's wise enough to win the world
But fool enough to lose it
He's a New World man - Rush
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02-07-2012, 08:26 PM
Post: #10
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 07:45 PM)eye2i2hear Wrote:  And I'll counter offer that there is a flaw in your thinking, revealed in the very metaphors (or are they analogies?) found significant. What distinguishes 'dance' from 'movement'?

Well, OF COURSE there's a flaw in my ointment!

But to clairfy my meeening a bit, which I think, from the way you replied, that you did not take as I meant, by "dance" and "jazz" what I had in mind was the melding of the passions and emotions and desires and rhythms of multiple people. It is this interaction, one person's experience bouncing off and responding to that of another, that I was implying. Not so much an individual shakin' and movin' to his own individual song.

- NonE

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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02-08-2012, 03:35 AM
Post: #11
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 10:06 AM)hazek Wrote:  So I ask you, do you like this idea? Would you be willing to sign such a contract?

One beauty of a voluntary society is you can do a market test to learn how many people accept the idea. No need to base a decision on other people's many and varied opinions. Rather, let the market test numbers speak for what the market wants.

That said, if some type of damage insurance was included it seems to be more along the lines of a dispute resolution business.

--

The thought of how far the human race would have advanced absent initiatory force
staggers the imagination.

THE POINT: Unlike the government thief, a common thief doesn't claim his "craft" is honest.
Lawyer-like dishonesty a point: The common thief is honest when he tells you he's robbing you.
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02-08-2012, 01:46 PM (This post was last modified: 02-08-2012 01:49 PM by hazek.)
Post: #12
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
Wow the level of hypocrisy in this thread so far is sickening.

I just can't believe the replies so far.

This is how you sound:
(righteously) "We are for the non aggression principle!" (hypocritically) "But we aren't ready to agree to never use aggression ourselves."
(righteously) "We are against stealing!" (hypocritically) "But we aren't ready to agree to never steal ourselves."
(righteously) "We are against violating our privacy!" (hypocritically) "But we aren't ready to agree to never invade someone else's privacy ourselves."
(righteously) "We are for freedom to do with our body what we want!" (hypocritically) "But we aren't ready to agree to never force someone else to do with their's what they don't want to do ourselves."
ect.


What is so bad in singing a contract that would clearly show that we are better than the statists? That we gave our personal word on how we're going to behave towards everyone else and aren't merely relying on illusionary rights and some 3rd party to enforce them?
What is so bad in singing a contract that says I will not use aggression unless I'm facing aggression, I will not steal, I will not defraud, I will not invade someone's privacy, I will not force someone to do with their body something they don't want to do and if I do here's what I'll accept as punishment for it?

What are you afraid of? Living up to the standards you'd like to hold the statists to? Pathetic.

You are just a bunch of hypocrites, crying "Injustice!" while not being ready to promise to be just yourselves. The only reason you protest the state is because it's not you who is doing the stealing and the aggressing and the forcing and the invading of privacy. At least that's how your posts sound.

Of all the places I thought this forum would have the most sympathy for my idea, I'm shocked, shocked and disgusted at what responses I got. Sad
(02-08-2012 03:35 AM)zonsb Wrote:  
(02-07-2012 10:06 AM)hazek Wrote:  So I ask you, do you like this idea? Would you be willing to sign such a contract?

One beauty of a voluntary society is you can do a market test to learn how many people accept the idea. No need to base a decision on other people's many and varied opinions. Rather, let the market test numbers speak for what the market wants.

That said, if some type of damage insurance was included it seems to be more along the lines of a dispute resolution business.

Actually I doubt I could since my idea would need ideological support to really take off and doesn't really contain a supply/demand component. And if people who want a voluntary society and are against the state aren't supporting it, no one else will.
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02-08-2012, 02:13 PM
Post: #13
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-07-2012 10:06 AM)hazek Wrote:  
(02-08-2012 03:35 AM)zonsb Wrote:  One beauty of a voluntary society is you can do a market test to learn how many people accept the idea. No need to base a decision on other people's many and varied opinions. Rather, let the market test numbers speak for what the market wants.

That said, if some type of damage insurance was included it seems to be more along the lines of a dispute resolution business.

Actually I doubt I could since my idea would need ideological support to really take off and doesn't really contain a supply/demand component. And if people who want a voluntary society and are against the state aren't supporting it, no one else will.

"Argue for your limitations, and sure enough they're yours." ~ Richard Bach.

This forum is a tiny niche. Did a market test empirically show there is no demand? Perhaps it isn't lack of demand, but rather, not effectively conveying a persuasive message.

Two salesmen from different shoe companies separately went down to South America. On returning to the states, the one salesman reported to his boss: There's no market for shoes in South America -- no one wears shoes. The second salesman reported to her boss: There's a tremendous market for shoes -- no ones wearing them.

--

The thought of how far the human race would have advanced absent initiatory force
staggers the imagination.

THE POINT: Unlike the government thief, a common thief doesn't claim his "craft" is honest.
Lawyer-like dishonesty a point: The common thief is honest when he tells you he's robbing you.
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02-08-2012, 07:37 PM
Post: #14
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
hazek:

Your rant is imbecilic and grossly misplaced. Who do you think you're talking to???!?! Why do I have to sign a stupid piece of paper before I can live a virtuous life? Guess what? I'm living a virtuous life right now (and have been for most if not all of my life, and will continue to), and I didn't sign nothing! Smoke THAT for a while. But you caught me in a good mood, so I'll humor you. I'll sign any papers you want me to sign, promising to do whatever you want me to do (as long as I agree with it). And at the end of the day, it will make absolutely no difference in how virtuously I live my life. I don't need to go around bragging and waving pieces of paper in people's faces saying I'm a virtuous person. I just do it. No assistance, no applause.

He's noble enough to know what's right
But weak enough not to choose it
He's wise enough to win the world
But fool enough to lose it
He's a New World man - Rush
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02-08-2012, 08:59 PM
Post: #15
RE: Do you want to move towards a voluntary society? Stick to the facts.
(02-08-2012 01:46 PM)hazek Wrote:  Of all the places I thought this forum would have the most sympathy for my idea, I'm shocked, shocked and disgusted at what responses I got. Sad

Yeah. Tough sell huh? Well at least there is hope. Just think of all of the police, politicians, hired killers and so on who have sworn an oath to support the constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic. Without their having done this noble deed who knows what carnage they might be inflicting on life and limb here and abroad. I shudder to think.

- NonE

This should make you proud: MP3 interview by Scott Horton of Chris Woods (pretty short segment)

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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