QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
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Author: Pete in Wisconsin
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QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
06-17-2012, 05:20 PM
Post: #1
QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
Hello, Usual Gang of Anarchists:

I just received a "ticket" from a Wisconsin DNR cop for failure to provide life jackets in boat. I was written up under Wisconsin Administrative Code 30.62(3)(a).

(My kids were floating around on an old picnic table in Devil's Lake State Park and I towed them with my kayak for about fifty feet).

I bought most of Marc's motions that deal with criminal and civil, and I listen to his show all the time, but I have no idea about the nuances of an Administrative hearing.

1) Do I still file motion to dismiss for lack of standing and failure to prove presence within the state, etc.?
2) Can I still cross examine COP and other witnesses?
3) Can I appeal if/when Judge ignores his own laws?
4) Do I still do the "unsigned plea of guilty" technique to try and question Judge?

Any tips SPECIFIC TO ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS would be greatly appreciated.

Oh, and a media rep on July 3rd at 9:15 am in Baraboo, Wisconsin would be grand, simply grand!

Thanks,

Pete
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06-18-2012, 07:00 AM
Post: #2
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
Pete,
!. yes

2. You should be able to if it goes to trial, but of course you will be denied cross when you ask the correct questions.

3. Plan on it.

4. Have it ready so that at any time they ask you to plea you can then assure them you fully intend to plea but you are not sure if it is in your best interest to plea guilty or not guilty, you are not a lawyer (theif) and you wish to be fully informed as to the cause and nature of the complaint against you before actually pleaing.

If I was not so far away from you I would definately be there for you. Good Luck!
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06-18-2012, 07:40 AM
Post: #3
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
Thanks, Notavoter!

I think I'll go and watch a couple administrative hearings for other serfs ahead of time to see how the sausage factory...er, I mean, "Legal Process" works!
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06-18-2012, 07:47 AM
Post: #4
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
I'm glad Notavoter was able to coherently respond to your questions. What he's said makes sense to me. I wish you luck Pete. I know logic has nothing to do with this, but I gotta ask... you were ticketed because a floating picnic table was considered a water craft??? For real? And you were "towing" said water craft with a kayak??? For real? (You must have some POWERful arms, dude!)

- NonE

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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06-18-2012, 10:42 AM
Post: #5
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
Thanks for the comments and support, NonE:

Damn, its very hard to reply to a NonE comment without cracking a joke...but I'm going to try.

Yeah, the picnic tables were wooden and mostly submerged. You've heard of "hydroplane?" What I was doing with the kayak and picnic table could best be described as "hydro-plow." As to the size of my guns, they're not what they once were, but they still inspire respect and awe... especially when the sweat droplets hug each soft, gentle crevice of my glistening, golden-brown man-curves.

I had a lot of fun confronting the cops in front of scores of witnesses at the boat launch. I deflated their cocky-cop demeanor in less than thirty seconds. Seriously, when I started asking them questions, their eyes dropped, and their body language changed to very squirmy, uncomfortable gesticulations. They tried the old trick of requiring me to show picture ID to identify myself. I told them my name and address, then demanded THEM to cite the law required me to show them picture ID. They got choked up and FAILED pathetically, like Bart Simpson being asked a math question in front of his classroom!

Then I asked if I was 1) under arrest, 2) being detained, or 3) FREE TO GO. They tried all kinds of non-responsive cop jibberish, but I demanded an answer. They said I was obstructing an officer and refusing to cooperate. I said "Bologna," reminded them that that I had just cooperated by identifying myself, and again I asked if I was free to go. They said they might arrest me for obstruction. Again, I demanded to know if I was being detained, or free to go. They started up with more jibberish, so I said, "THEN I'M FREE TO GO," and walked away to throw out some litter.

When I returned to car a few minutes later, cop was there and gave me a citation for failure to provide life jackets in a boat. I asked if there was evidence of a complaining party. I asked if there was any evidence of anyone's property being damaged, any physical injury, or anyone's rights violated. He answered non-responsively, by saying, "There doesn't need to be."

I also asked him if he'd made a legal determination that I had violated a law..he said, yes, he had. I asked if it was civil or criminal, he said administrative code.

I told him I am very much looking forward to cross examining him in court.

The worst part of the whole scene was the crowd reaction. Some nosy, nit-wit Obamanoid dude walked up to me and said I was a real jerk. Then, when I tried to engage him in discussion, some lady interrupted me and shouted "he has a right to speak his mind!" Like Harriet Tubman said, its very hard to help slaves escape if they don't want to leave the plantation.

Oops, initial appearance is in late July, court date is not set, so no media reps needed until court date, please.
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06-18-2012, 11:14 AM
Post: #6
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
OBVIOUSLY a trouble maker!

- NonE Big Grin

P.S. Why'd I get shortchanged on the joke? Wuz it something I sed, or the alignment of the stars (Donna Summer and Michael Jackson sadly absent)?

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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06-18-2012, 06:51 PM
Post: #7
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
(06-18-2012 06:10 PM)gearheadmm Wrote:  Be sure to look up definition of flotation devise. Maybe find loop hole! Get it? Good luck, will be watching. Also definition of boat/watercraft to see if picnic table fits the parameters, lol. Maybe you get lucky and it will fit BOTH definitions!!!



Sigh.

Quote:de·vise (d-vz) KEY

TRANSITIVE VERB:
de·vised, de·vis·ing, de·vis·es

To form, plan, or arrange in the mind; design or contrive: devised a new system for handling mail orders.
Law To transmit or give (real property) by will.
Archaic To suppose; imagine.

NOUN:
Law

The act of transmitting or giving real property by will.
The property or lands so transmitted or given.
A will or clause in a will transmitting or giving real property.

ETYMOLOGY:
Middle English devisen, from Old French deviser, from Vulgar Latin *dvsre, from Latin *dvsre, frequentative of dvidere, to divide ; see divide



- NonDvidere Confused Tounge

- NonE .).

"I just don't understand how this happens." Undecided
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06-18-2012, 09:35 PM
Post: #8
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
If I squint just right, the curves of your chart look a lot like my left bicep as I wrapped my calloused love-grips around the wet, bulging aquatic propulsion tool of my oblong maritime pleasure vessel (kayak paddle).

Thanks for the tip on looking up the definition of a "boat." I took your advice, and here's what I found...Wisconsin administrative code is pretty vague and open to interpretation:

"Boat" or "vessel" means every description of watercraft used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water, except a seaplane on the water and a fishing raft

I'll research your angle and design some sneaky cross-examination questions to try and cause cop to contradict himself on "boat" definition. Also, if he is able to claim a picnic table is a boat, then I might try to have case thrown out due to law being overly vague (void for vagueness?) because if a picnic table can be a boat, so can a chair, a shoe, a swimsuit, air in my lungs...anything!

This will be a fallback plan...my main plan will be the usual Marc Steven's approach (motion to dismiss, unsigned plea of guilty, media rep, impeach cop, move to strike all cops testimony, appeal if necessary). Unless, of course, this "Administrative hearing" is totally different from the usual criminal and civil courts.
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06-19-2012, 11:49 AM
Post: #9
RE: QUESTIONS: Administrative hearing vs criminal/civil
I handle those pretty much the same way as court, though you can be a little more direct. You ask about the conflict of interest: Am I entitled to a fair hearing, can I get one if there is a conflict of interest, who do you represent?

You're still challenging the fictions they are presenting you. This is from an admin hearing dealing with taxes: Maryland tax hearing.

http://marcstevens.net/cos/cos20110126.html

If government services were valuable and the market wanted them, they wouldn't be provided on a compulsory basis.
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