Categorized | Call of Shame

#CoS – Mar 7, 2013 – Kurt’s IRS Call

Posted on March 8th, 2013 by Calvin

A BIG round of applause to Kurt for having the courage and persistence to question the IRS on what evidence they have to prove the applicability of their code. He did a great job keeping the focus on that single issue, despite their many attempts to deviate from giving a responsive answer. Lets go through this one step-by-step:

  • Kurt questions the payments being assessed as “taxable” income to determine whether that is an arbitrary opinion or if it based on facts currently within their knowledge. +1
  • Kurt goes on to question whether there is any evidence that would demonstrated an obligation to file a return, at which point he get transferred to another department. +1
  • At the point where the agent is having trouble finding an answer, Kurt recognizes the prompt to request a hold while they try to find the evidence he is asking about. (Do this every opportunity you can!) +1
  • When transferred, Kurt picks up right at the beginning like he should be questioning whether the determination of “taxable” income is based on facts currently within their knowledge or if it is just an arbitrary opinion. (The agent responds non-responsively.) +1
  • Kurt follows up with what evidence do they rely on that prove that the code applies to him. (The agent puts him on hold to make a few notes.) +1
  • When the agent tries to deviate by asking some questions of his own, Kurt redirects him to the issue at hand: “what evidence there is that the code applies to me?” +1
  • The agent tries to play stupid and asks “what code are you referring to sir?” Kurt replies “the IRS code,” which is followed by an extended pause and the agent finally puts him on hold again to “review some things.” +1
  • The agent comes back wanting to discuss the W-2 from the employer and Kurt brings him right back to “what factual evidence there is that the code applies to me?” (the agent puts on his dunce hat again and pretends to be clueless on the term “code.”) +1
  • Kurt goes on to explain there are matters of law and matters of fact, and he is only interested in discussing matters of facts and evidence that the code applies at all. (Another long pause from the agent.) +1
  • After going another round, Kurt does the right thing and requests a hold on the assessment while they figure out what is going on. +1
  • The agent asks if this is a matter of Kurt “refusing to pay income taxes” and Kurt replies “how is asking questions equal to refusing? I don’t understand.” +1
  • When the agent again refers to the legal opinion, Kurts again asks “is that based on facts currently within your knowledge or arbitrary opinion?”+1
  • The agent asks if Kurt was a “citizen” in 2011, to which he replies “is that an arbitrary opinion or is that based on facts?” +1
  • Kurt makes the statement that he is simply asking for proof, and if they don’t have it to just admit they don’t. +1
  • The agent goes back to the W-2 and Kurt goes back to the facts. +1
  • Kurt gets in the line that “if you are going to accuse somebody of being responsible for something, then you should provide actual factual evidence that it applies to them in the first place.” (Followed by yet another long pause from the agent and another hold to make some more notes.) +1
  • The agent gets closer to understanding what is being asked by Kurt by stating “so your main question is whether or not the internal revenue code actually applies to you?” and Kurt quickly corrects him and includes “what facts there are? Is there actual evidence?” (Enter yet another pregnant pause.) +1
  • Again the agent refers back to the code in response to Kurt’s previous questions, to which Kurt again has to go back to the issue that he is just asking for the evidence and gets in another request to put the assessment on hold. +1
  • For some reason the agent goes back to the W-2 and Kurt again has to ask “I am just wondering; how is that evidence that the code applies to me? Are there witnesses with personal first-hand knowledge?” (Another long pause from the agent.) +1
  • The agent shows his confusion by thinking that asking for evidence is somehow a dispute (more proof that few agents can distinguish between a question and argument).
  • Kurt points out the assumption of applicability of the code by the lack of evidence. +1
  • The agent wants to go into a series of questions (distractions), and Kurt mentions that the burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim and puts the ball back in their court. (The agent pulls the infamous “STATE department two-step” when he cannot directly respond to Kurt’s questions.) +1
  • Before the agent gets off the line with Kurt, he again requests a hold be put on the assessment. +1

After being on the phone for over an hour and left sitting on hold to their mind-numbing hold music, Kurt ran short on time and had to end the call to continue the discussion another day.

Kurt did an excellent job sticking to the issue of what factual evidence they relied on to make their assertions and notably scored at least 23 points! Great call keeping the burden of proof where it belongs; on the accuser.

 

              

22 Comments For This Post

  1. Otto Says:

    Great work sir!

  2. Dan Says:

    IMHO best CoS ever! Kurt can I have your autograph?

  3. Packa Says:

    Nice. I like how they pretend too not under stand what is it you want. They must be trained to act like that towards anyone who is noncomplaint.

  4. Chase Says:

    So when the fines are levied and the “charges” are finally dropped are we invited to the party?

  5. Israel Bureaucracy Association (NSP-IL) Says:

    “How is my answer to whether I am a citizen or whether I refuse to pay, relevant to the question of facts and evidence that the income tax and the constitution applies to me, meaning, how does an obligation upon me was created”…

  6. Kurt Says:

    One small correction, I wasn’t put on hold for an hour straight, the total time I spent on the phone was about an hour. Granted, the majority of that was hold time. When my call was transferred for the 3rd time and the automated message told me the wait time was over 15 minutes, I knew I could no longer stay on as I had to get to work and do something productive like fix printers.

  7. Panxer Says:

    Suggestion: When they get to the “citizen questions”, I’ve heard Marc and others use the words “I’m not qualified to make that legal determination.”, or, “Are you presuming that I’m a US Citizen, and if so what facts or evidence are you relying upon to reach that conclusion?”.

    Great call! Wish we could’ve got the conclusion, but it was still telling.

  8. Paul Says:

    Bravo to Kurt. Well done.

  9. Taracs Says:

    Well done sir that was amazing

  10. Randy Says:

    Awesome job Kurt!!! But yes if you are a US citizen (yeah I know citizenship is being disputed here also) you are exempt from withholding. 26 C.F.R. 1.1441-1(d)

  11. JP Says:

    Great Job!.. That’s exactly how I would have done it . . .

  12. Voluntaryist in Abilene Says:

    Excellent job Kurt! The long pauses of the agents is so funny. I’m sorry they put you on hold… would have liked to have heard a conclusion to the episode. It’s too bad there isn’t a way to stop being put on hold.

  13. Chris Says:

    Great job Kurt.
    I’d like to see if the IRS continues w/their “summary process”, even though you questioned them on this but didn’t bring it to completion.
    Marc, make sure you follow-up on this one. Don’t leave us hanging.
    … Chris

  14. Chris Says:

    Kurt,

    Your call is exactly the kind of shit I experienced countless times with the IRS. I wasted more time than I can even keep track of.

    I know for a FACT that the IRS stooges are TRAINED to do what that asshole did to you. The pauses are evidence that he was being “coached” in what to say. That’s why they mute you for a short period of time. They’re getting instructions from their head-psycho in what to say and how to say it.

    These phone calls are psychological warfare. The IRS conducts this war on behalf of the rich people who run this national plantation.

    Getting transferred to “accounting” results in SOS.

    There is no person or department you can contact to get resolution to this.
    Your “case” will end-up in Ogden, and they make the determination there. Meanwhile they’ll keep sending you mailings. If you want to understand what the mailings mean, read this book:

    “Taxation by Misrepresentation”, J Benson.

    I didn’t have the technology to record my “informal discovery” “events” w/oppopsing counsel during my t/c proceedings, but they were so verbally-violent w/me that my wife was all stressed-out after the call. She was my witness. We emptied 1/2 a bottle of scotch after that call, and it barely calmed us down.

    That’s what you’re dealing with.

    You’d be wise to read Benson’s book to learn what you’re getting yourself into … Chris

  15. Bill Bochynski Says:

    Nice job, Kurt! Well done!

    You get a “A” for courage, an “A” for staying on “point,” an “A” for standing up for the cause of Freedom, let’s see, what else . . . ?

  16. sscharliem Says:

    I was thinking of using this question “there are 7 billion people on the planet, how do you determine which ones the code applies to and which ones is doesn’t apply to?

  17. Kurt Says:

    I think the result of that question would be what the man did to me which was to attempt to run me through their little list of questions starting with, “Are you a U.S. Citizen?” I’ve thought of responding, “Factually speaking, I’m a homo sapien sapien male. Legally what I am is above my pay grade, as I’m not qualified to make that determination. Why is the government constantly asking me to make legal determinations about myself that I am not qualified to make?”

  18. Calvin Says:

    @Kurt: “…and how does that go to my question of what FACTUAL EVIDENCE do you have (rely on) that the code applies and that I am a ‘taxpayer’ with any obligations…”

    😉

  19. aboisjoli Says:

    sounds like Gordon hall is the tax agent.

  20. Pete Says:

    It almost sounds like the tax agent doesn’t want to answer Kurt’s question.

  21. Rick Says:

    This is great but what happens now. Just round and round with transfers and calls while the IRS moves forward with it?

  22. jack Worthington Says:

    Nice transcript of the IRS (The Great Satan’s henchmen) call. Many years ago I was told that the IRS operatives are told not to answer questions. I suspect this is because inevitably there will be conflicts of interpretations of code meanings and the “Great Satan” would be embroiled in 1000’s of suits and the truth about their criminalities would be exposed and then the politicians would lose their power to loot A to satisfy B.

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