Categorized | NSP Radio Archive

NSP – Dec 22, 2012 – Exploring the Path Towards a Voluntary Society with Clif High

Posted on December 22nd, 2012 by Calvin

Co-hosts: JT & Calvin [@YouTube] and Guest: Clif High [] joins us to discuss how to achieve/pursue a peaceful/voluntary society. Clif is a radical linguist and software engineer best known for his ALTA/SOTTC reports driven by his WebBot project. The WebBots use algorithms that analyze emotional values-sets within language to predictably determine events and trends. Although the the WebBots have their share of “misses”, they have accurately uncovered some strikingly significant future-events beyond what chance should allow.

Show Topics:


74 Comments For This Post

  1. Observer Says:

    I really like the work you do Marc.

    I can’t believe people are still listening to Clif High. He rambles in circles and says nothing. Pure quicksilver artist.(aka B.S.).

    You handled his claims nicely Marc.

  2. Fake Name Says:

    it takes a modicum of intelligence to understand Clif, y’know.

    oh sorry.. you don’t know.

  3. Pete Says:

    I was trying to give the guest a chance until I found out that he’s an Aikido practitioner. I am not trying to insult him with this statement, but I truly believe that people who invest years of energy and study in an almost worthless martial art exhibit poor logic and reasoning skills. Its no secret that most MMA cage fighters study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Tai, greco-roman wrestling, and boxing. None of them study Aikido because it doesn’t work against a resisting opponent. However, it may work against the attacking Martians, but I won’t know for sure until I study the fear levels in their linguistic patterns.

    The etymology stuff was really fascinating, and I learned some interesting facts. Made me think of Murray Rothbard who complained how “They” changed the word (economic) “Depression,” to “Recession,” and changed the definition of “inflation” from “an increase in the supply of money and credit resulting in a loss of purchasing power” to “an increase in prices.” Some words change naturally over time, and others are intentionally manipulated to trick people.

  4. Nomos Says:

    I thought it was an excellent show, as well as an interesting angle.

    And that, in my opinion, is what life is about, angles. Things can be viewed (perceived) differently depending on what angle you look at it.

    I very much agreed with Cliff’s thoughts on violence as being a think of “nature.” The symbol for Yin and Yang is THE perfect example of life and all its attributes and properties.

    There will always be opposites, there’s nothing we can do about that. It is inherent in nature. Our composition and power to alter our selves is what separates us from animals.

    Etymology is extremely important. I learned about it when I began my study of Banking and Finance, and systems of government. It really shows when a word has been intentionally falsified (verbicide), or had a natural development of change.

    As far as Aikido is concerned, think that’s a rather harsh (and unfair) description. I believe it fits right in line with the concept of a voluntary, non-aggressive society.

    It may interest some to know that Aikido is called the “gentleman’s” art because it’s a art based on defense and neutralization, which principle is “do no harm.” The ultimate goal of conclusion of an attack is neutralization without harm to your attacker.

    So it shouldn’t be a surprise that an art that prides itself on defense and non-aggression, would not be a favorite among the other forms based on attack and injury.

    As always, a great show!

  5. dor Says:

    wonderful line of questioning, really appreciate you getting Clif to expound on his definitions. the man is quick and tries to cover as much material as he can, sometimes sends me straight to the dictionary. such mental discipline may be hard to keep up with, for some. great interview. please have him on again.

  6. NonE Says:

    Who kidnapped Nomos?!?!?

    Long ago in a time/space continuum not the present, a person calling himself Nomos agreed to discuss a subject which I no longer recall. And so I attempted to open the discussion with some basic definitions of foundational words from which to build my side of the discussion. This other Nomos immediately attacked me and accused me of all kinds of crap such that I couldn’t even set up the foundation for my perspective on the subject. I saw where this was going and chose not to even attempt to go there, something about teaching pigs to sing ringing distantly in my ears.

    Now we have this new, nicer Nomos pretending to be my friend! HAH! I call FRAUD! Either that or, as I asked earlier, Whudja do Nomos, drop some acid over the weekend?

    – NonKettleBlackPotThingaMajiggie

  7. Andy Says:

    Narcissists often inject themselves to make it about themselves.

  8. Someguy Says:

    Marc got his ass kicked. Wow, clif just obliterated. Marc didn’t know the root of the words he was working.

  9. DixieFlatline Says:

    I had to stop listening around 32 mins. This guy is another crank quasi-statist. He’s a planner, he doesn’t understand law, economics, or philosophy.

    He’s a voluntarist who is for governance. He’s for prime directives.

    He’s for planetary authority. Planetary authorization.

    If I have to listen to him say WE one more time …

  10. staljans Says:

    world CITIzenSHIP with papers- NO mine fuhrer, people voluntarily united- YES please,vee dont need no stinking papers nor pass PORTs…we need voluntary NON-compliance.., and resistance through educating the goons that drag their knuckles on the ground, to show they are the enforcers of their OWN and mine, enslavement….by deception and IgNORance (Ignore the goon ANTS). thank you Marc, JT, and Calvin, cheers to you all, may you be free from all tyrANTS.
    Jan ski, from CAN a DUH. Happy “holly” days, and a merry new Roman year.tehehe. free man whom works NOT for free.?, sorry still stuck on stupid and pay-try-idiots ideology :0) .

  11. Pete Says:

    @Nomos: If you go to youtube and watch a couple Aikido demonstration videos, it looks quite impressive. Upon further investigation, you will find that the guy in the video who is losing and getting tossed around like a rag doll is called the “Uke.” The “Uke” is really just a shill who has rehearsed the fake battle with his opponent ahead of time. Not much different than pro-wrestling. Like I said, Aikido won’t work against a resisting opponent.

    If you can find a video of an Aikido practitioner fighting a non-shill, please let me know. I’ve searched for years and can’t find one…probably because the Aikido guys know its fake. It is my belief that anyone who commits years of effort mastering a fake, useless self-defense system has poor reasoning skills.

  12. Nomos Says:

    @Pete: I’m not speaking from a layman’s viewpoint.

    I think you’ve misunderstood what I stated. Aikido is not an art of aggression. It is purely defensive. It doesn’t deal with “resistance” because it’s whole premise is based upon “do no harm.” If there’s resistance, then they’re not doing it right.

    So if one is basing one’s analysis of Aikido on its effectiveness on a resisting opponent, one does not understand Aikido. Put another way, if the premise of Aikido is “do no harm,” then so long as the Aikido artist is not being attacked, then there is no opponent since the whole idea is neutralization of aggression with no harm to either side.

    Put yet another way, what does one resist if there is no attack?

    Videos of Aikido are more to show the counter moves of holds and physical contact. Not displays of damaging power.

    If one’s interest lies in being the aggressor then you are very correct, Aikido is not, and wouldn’t be effective.

    Thank you for your opinions.

  13. paul muir Says:

    The sphere that attached to the sun is part of my two decades of research and cliff knows but denies this, because of his own agenda. What drive that, i am not sure but its centred around aliens, that’s illuminati favourite

  14. Pete Says:

    @Nomos: By “resisting opponent,” I meant any opponent who is trying to resist your strikes/counter strikes, regardless of who started the fight. For example, if a drunk guy in a bar takes a swing at you (most fights start with a powerful right hook from aggressor), and you attempt to do a defensive Aikido arm toss or wrist lock against him, but he yanks his arm away before you can execute this move, the drunk guy is a “resisting opponent.”

    I have no problem with people studying Aikido for fitness, improved flexibility…whatever. But teaching people that its an effective self defense system is like teaching people to bring a banana to a gun fight.

    If your self defense goal is to “do no harm” to the opponent, then studying jogging and the 100 yard dash is probably equally as effective as Aikido. If you want to learn to defend yourself and your family, then learn #1) firearms training, and #2) Jiu-jitsu/MMA (For when you run out of ammo).

  15. Nomos Says:

    @Pete: I get your meaning. But, I still believe you’re misunderstanding. There are no strikes in Aikido. Only counters.

    However, in your given scenario, I’m not aware of any martial art, offensive or defensive that can be effective if your opponent makes his move before you can execute yours. That would be, in my opinion, a counter-move to the counter-move.

    But, addressing your hypothetical, if something like that is happening, then you’re not doing it right. As with Jiu-jitsu, Aikido uses the force of the opponent.

    With respect to your remaining opinions, I’ll just say this, if you’re running out of ammo and have to resort to any form of physical combat against an opponent, Jiu-jitsu, MMA, Aikido, whatever, you need more firearms training. Because you’re not doing that right either.

  16. Pete Says:

    Right, so no martial art is capable of blocking a punch or kick, because that would be a “counter move to a counter move?” Okay, I think I just ran out of ammo on this conversation!

    I must now humbly admit that I have been wrong about the superiority of BJJ and MMA. Here’s a link to short video from a show called “That’s Incredible” about how “Break Dancing” is a safe, non-violent alternative to gang attacks and street fights:

    Next time a drunk in a bar wants to punch your teeth out, or some mob of savages tries to mug your family (, just challenge them to do the electric centipede.

  17. Marc Stevens Says:

    Just a friendly reminder there is a forum to this website.

  18. Nomos Says:

    @Pete: I don’t put myself in those types of situations. But if my family and I are attacked by “mob of savages” (that’s funny), I don’t think Jiu-Jitsu, MMA is going to be of much help. How firearms and break dancing got thrown into our discussion of why you dislike Aikido so much, I don’t know. But, you’re arguing with yourself at this point.


    Apologies, I hadn’t intended it to go this far. Should I make any further comments I’ll direct them to the forum.

    [ Moon-walking out.]

  19. dan gould Says:

    When Cliff High said “… I really do not want voluntarism forced on me” I stopped listening. The ridiculous nature of that statement should be self evident. I guess not all NSP podcasts can be golden.

  20. Pete Says:

    @Nomos: At the 2011 Wisconsin State Fair in Milwaukee, about a hundred people were assaulted by a mob. About a hundred innocent people, many of them families exiting the Fair were randomly punched, kicked, thrown to the ground, trampled, etc., by teenaged hooligans. Yes, I would call this antisocial behavior “savage,” acted out by “savages” (Glad you thought this was funny). I doubt any of the victims knew at the time they were putting themselves or their families in “that type of situation,” as you call it. Because the victims were all obeying Wisconsin’s gun laws, none of them were armed.

    I don’t hate Aikido…but I certainly dislike people who try to pretend it works as a self defense system when there is strong evidence that it doesn’t work. To be fair, Cliff never tried to convince anyone that it works, so he’s presumed innocent of that charge, but he did admit spending years studying Aikido. And based on the mountains of evidence I’ve seen that Aikido is not an effective martial art, I question the reasoning skills and logic (i.e., intelligence) of people who devote years of time studying it.

    The break dancing video shows another BS self defense fable from 1982…that break dancing could end gang violence by allowing opposing gangs to dance against each other instead of fight.

    Yes, Marc, please accept my apologies as well. If I had followed your teachings, I would have simply asked Nomos for any FACTS OR EVIDENCE that Aikido has any merits as an effective Martial Art. I would have asked for the same evidence that I use to prove BJJ and MMA are superior.. namely, hundreds of videos of people using the techniques in REAL, UNREHEARSED, NO RULES FIGHTS.

  21. Nikolai Says:

    if anyone can help with an automated citation, i posted info in the forums at

    really appreciate it

  22. Cindy Says:

    @ dan .. and that’s not the only ridiculous statement. Clif has been wearing thin on me lately. I made a list of all the statements he has made recently that completely lack integrity. I’m going to have to stop after this interview. Too numerous, and I’m sick of listening to his rambling and disagreeable spirit.

    Just one rhetorical example – So, brain chemicals and their actions and reactions that combine in such a way that a something new is learned, remembered, forgotten; and to allow for congruency, we also have to include ALL brain functions; hearing, seeing, pleasure, etc. All these use the same PROCESS as learning. According to Clif, this is “violence”. OTOH a gazelle is killed for food by another wild animal; and this is NOT “violence”. It’s “natural”, he says. So logic demands that someone clarify why one act of nature (resulting in bloodshed and devouring) is different from another act of nature that does not include bloodshed at all.

    I hope everyone understands that when he claims to be a “linguist”, he’s making that up. He has no education in language. He just makes up definitions. Anyone can look up the etymology of language. He was at least wrong in both the definitions of “government” and “violence”. If he’s making up his own meanings (he is), then there is no way to UNDERSTAND. Everyone has to be using the same language. Clif High is making his up as he goes along.

    I am so disappointed that someone I have followed for many years, has at last, totally lost ‘it’. I used to brag that he is genius, to those who scoffed. I can’t say that any more. Any integrity he had is gone. 🙁

  23. Damon Says:

    It is very cool to see the vast alternative thoughts. Marc and Clif are both completely on the same wavelength yet subtle differences in language can make it seem like they have vastly different opinions.

  24. Adam Says:

    If your going to toss out everything Clif has said based on his having “totally lost ‘it’” then at least bass this opinion on things he actually said.The point you are jumping to conclusions about was the topic of violence in nature. You are claiming that in his statement about the lion and the gazelle that he had said that this was (I quote) “NOT “violence”. It’s “natural”, he says”
    That is incorrect, he clearly stated that the action of (lion and gazelle / predator and prey) while this is an act of “natural violence” it is not an act of “aggression”. Violence and aggression are two very different words with two very different meanings. The point I believe he was trying to make was that violence is very much apart of nature. Now, I’m not going to debate his assertions of entomology because I’m not qualified to do so. May I suggest that if your going to take issue with something that someone has said then at least do them the courtesy of listening close enough to what is actually being said so that you’ll then be able to make an intelligent critique.

  25. NonE Says:

    “May I suggest that if your going to take issue with something that someone has said then at least do them the courtesy of listening close enough to what is actually being said…”

    Well if THAT isn’t the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard! What are you trying to do, totally shut down the internet? Damned commie pinko fascist demopublican probably. Harrumph!

    – NonE

  26. Rick Says:

    I agree that the discussion on “violence” did not appear to be consistent. I agree with Cindy’s observation about the Gazelle issue. It most definitely is “violence”. It did not appear to me that Clif thought that through to well and was thinking out loud. On Etymology, it is the study of words and the history. It is not the same as the definition of the word. In fact the definition of the word can vary with many words depending on how it is used to construct a sentence. Finally, today the BOT got a “hit”. The item was a story entitled “Where’s Hillary?” This precise language was used as an example as to what would manifest at this time. clif thought it was indicating a general disapearance of key minions, we shal see, one gone more to go?

  27. Rick Says:

    Oh, here is the Hillary article link:

  28. Adam Says:

    Well, alright, I might have come off as a “Damned commie pinko fascist demopublican” to start with but I’m really not as horrible as all that. I don’t know what to call myself really, I’ve never heard of any political party that I would care to join. I’m not much into joining actually but I don’t mind participating. I don’t care for the ism schisms and I would never follow any Archon. So I don’t know what you’d call me.

    About this discussion on “violence”, I believe it is one of the most important discussions we could be having. I have given it very much thought and so to, I believe, has Clif High. I can’t speak for him but I think I understood his point and so I’m attempting to expound upon it as to bring some clarity to the discussion.

    I think people are getting hung up on the use of the word “violence”. As if it was a bad thing and should be avoided at all cost. seems like Clif said that people are afraid of the word itself. What I heard in the conversation was that Clif made a distinction between the words “violence” and “aggression”. The difference while subtle is not inconsistent and is an important point to be made. One that I believe reveals that he has thought quite a lot on this subject.

    Noun: aggression u’gre-shun

    A disposition to behave aggressively— A feeling of hostility that arouses thoughts of attack
    – aggressiveness— Violent action that is hostile and usually unprovoked—The act of initiating hostilities—Deliberately unfriendly behaviour…

    Noun: violence vI-(u-)lun(t)s

    An act of aggression (as one against a person who resists)— force— The property of being wild or turbulent—“the storm’s violence”;— A turbulent state resulting in injuries and destruction etc.

    Of course the words are closely related and obviously aggression is an act of violence. This does not automatically equate that all violence is aggressive. There’s a very clear emotional quality to the word “aggression” that describes an intention behind the action. In the definition of the word “violence” it describes a purely natural force as:
    “The property of being wild or turbulent—“the storm’s violence”;— A turbulent state resulting in injuries and destruction etc.”

    Clif described violence to the action of the neurons when something new is learned. All neurons are electrically excitable and Clif was trying to describe this action from the level of the cells perspective. Look at the macro of the micro here: If you were standing next to a tree that was suddenly struck by lighting I think you would absolutely agree that this was a very violent moment in your life. Now think of yourself as a tiny glia cell standing under the synaptic cleft between the axon terminal and the dendrites of the next neuron. From the tiny glia cells perspective it may appear that it was in the midst of a massive synaptic electrical storm. From this cells microscopic perspective it is a very violent event.

    The point, I believe, is that violence is inherently natural and that without it one is helpless and defenseless. Aggression is an emotional reaction that in many cases can be quantified as unjust.

    Using such a microscopic metaphor I think was an excellent way to illustrate just how inherent and healthy violence is to any natural system. Without it even basic biological functions are not possible. Life itself would cease to exist. Especially if one looks at this through an evolutionary filter, any organism that has lost its natural potential for violence would most likely guaranty its own extinction.

    Now consider our own domestication and that we are the victims of social engineers who have been systematically attempting to breed the natural potential for violence out of our species. Outside of our domesticated captivity we will have no chance for survival only extinction. This is a very serious problem for one who wishes to live free.

    Personally, I don’t wish to live in domesticated captivity.
    I’m practicing the art of rewilding myself.

  29. Aaron Says:

    Is it pragmatic to equate change with violence?

  30. Cindy Says:

    @ Adam .. I DID listen; and I reported what I heard. I think YOU did not hear correctly. I always listen to his interviews multiple times. If I hear differently, I will report.

    I only cited one example. There are many many more just in this one interview.

    I also take exception to something he said in another interview done around this time. Or was it a wujo? He claims the brain in our gut is “ego”. It is NOT! It is the seat of wisdom. It tells the truth. The ego does not always tell the truth, because it doesn’t know! That was a stupid thing to say.

    Do you want to see the list I made, even before this interview?

    He’s on a “living in the moment” kick, pretending that it was his idea all along; but truthfully, he just got on it as a side effect of the new citizenship he is claiming. From what he said; his new obsession (Now) is annoying his own mother. I suspect she has seen him fly from one thing to the next, becoming entranced with his new idea of the month. Yeah, people get annoyed when someone around them has been “reborn”, and won’t shut up about it.

    He lied about his pole reversal position. Just two/three years ago, he came out with some breathless alerts about pole shift. In his wujo, he is now saying that he realized in the NINETIES that *pole shift* did not add up. That’s a lie and it’s documented.

    When he was debunking someone who told him that we all need to gain weight to deal with possible extreme physical demands in the future, due to a breakdown of civilization and nature, he used an example from WWII. He claims that the walk the Japanese made the soldiers travel killed so many Americans was because of their FAT!!! WRONG-O Mr. High. Look at ANY photo of Americans during the war. They are SKINNY. Their so called fat was not an obstacle! They were, again, SKINNY!

    In one of his wujo’s he said he was going to do one around Thanksgiving, and tell us a little story. Never showed up. You need to know that he never follows through.

    * I guess I was listening. Many times.

    The biggest flaw I see in him is how he reams out people, sometimes even “friends” in his public discourse. Evidently he abused Courtney Brown in some way. It seems he does not play well with others. He would probably admit it. That’s fine. But why publicly humiliate someone like George Ur??? Nasty bit, that was.

    He’s just out of control. That’s all. I don’t trust him; but I keep listening for something that indicates his blather is meaningful.

  31. NonE Says:

    Adam sed, “I’m practicing the art of rewilding myself.”

    I love it.

    And I think I agree with your position regarding violence versus aggression. It is aggression which is uncivilized behavior. Self defense in response to aggression, for example, is violence, and is violence in support of civilized behavior.

    As regards the interview with Clif, I found it very interesting. I have no previous experience with this person. I did find several comments of his to be highly problematical, but I also found it interesting that he was looking at all of this from a completely different world view. Rather than looking from the perspective of principle (voluntaryist, for example), he seems to be coming at it from a utilitarian angle. If one studies history there is a good argument to be made for the utilitarian perspective even though it does not pass muster with a viewpoint based on philosophical purity. From this point of view I found the discussion worth listening to as that thing that people claim as “TRUTH” is highly problematical. I don’t think there is any “TRUTH,” but rather find that what is, is, and each of us must determine for ourselves how to comport ourselves. I choose, personally, to focus on voluntary transactions. But I exclude zucchini and carrots in that maxim. Each of us depends on some level of depradation in order to live. That is a truth. So the bottom line is that we each have to determine where to draw an arbitrary line we will call our own personal “truth.”

    So the conversation was worth listening to in that it pushed my thinking about. It has obviously done so to others here, and the conversation which results is beneficial if only for that reason.

    – NonE

  32. Adam Says:

    I guess I have one last thing to say here about jumping to uniformed conclusions. Before anyone can intelligently critique someone else’s reasoning it might be helpful if they knew something about what they are attempting to critique. Take for instance the unstudied statements made above about Aikido. If one was not careful simply blurting out arrogant and uniformed statements might lead people to – “question the reasoning skills and logic (i.e., intelligence) of” – the one speaking.

    Every true martial artist I’ve ever met (and I’ve met many) all have acknowledged the beauty and inherent intelligence within the Aikido system. No matter what their personal favorite technique was. Whether they studied Aikido or not they were able to see the value of this highly refined and evolved system. Most will tell you it matters very little what system you practice what matters is the level of skill you have attained. For instance a highly skilled master of Muay Thai has no chance of beating someone who has mastered Krav Maga unless they have a superior skill level. The most skilled fighter will almost always be the winner.

    If one would study martial arts for real and not just watch youtube videos they might have the opportunity to learn this. Any real master of any martial art technique will tell you that your strongest and most important weapon is your mind. Consciousness, physical and spiritual intelligence, this is the only true road to becoming superior in any technique.

    Aikido was created by Morihei Ueshiba as the end result of a life time of seeking physical and spiritual intelligence. He had already become legendary as a martial artist in the school of ‘Daito–ryu- Aiki-ju-jutsu’ before he began to form the synthesis of his art which he at first called Aiki Budo and then Aikido.

    He was always stressing the fact that the techniques were just for learning what he was really teaching which was the refinement of the fundamental principals of movement and conflict resolution. The essence of physical and spiritual intelligence in the form of a martial art designed for teaching true universal principals. The universal principals of Aiki and Kiai.

    These principals can be very successfully applied to real self defense situations but, as every student of Aikido should know, you wouldn’t want use the formalized techniques and stances in a real self defense situation. You improvise and adapt. Anyone with any real combat experience will tell you that the ability to improvise and adapt, to be able to think on your feet are crucial skills for survival. A good Aikido Sensei will teach you this and will also teach you the basic self defense application of the techniques. “Takemusu aiki” is the term used in Aikido for improvised martial art through the principle of aiki.

    The formalized techniques and stances of Aikido are the embodiment of principles, of physical and spiritual intelligence for the responsible resolution of conflict while causing no unnecessary harm.
    Osensei said that the source of Budo is the spirit of loving protection for all beings.

    ” Budo is not the felling of an opponent by force; nor is it a tool to lead the world to destruction with arms. True Budo is to accept the spirit of the universe, keep the peace of the world, correctly produce, protect and cultivate all beings in nature.”

  33. NonE Says:

    I know nothing about martial arts. Yet I found the above very interesting and thought provoking reading. Thanks, Adam.

    – NonE

  34. Nomos Says:

    Thank you Adam.

  35. dan gould Says:

    Bah Humbug

  36. NonE Says:

    dan gould Says:
    December 27th, 2012 at 6:46 pm

    Bah Humbug
    Izzat about something in particular, or just a general BAH HUMBUG for good measure? If the latter, I whole heartedly agree! 🙂

    – NonE

  37. dan gould Says:

    I think Ebeneezer recieved a bad rap.

  38. NonE Says:

    ALL rap is bad!!!

    – NonE

  39. Tyler Says:

    I dont see how everyone is bashing Cliff. Marc did a terrible job interviewing. Stupid noob.

  40. Calvin Says:

    @Tyler: Despite all the opinions, Clif said he really enjoyed such an engaging interview.

    However I can understand why you would think that Marc did a “terrible job interviewing;” you may not be familiar with the philosophy of the show and how we effectively use such philosophy in court. Ironically, your opinion may be what it is because you are a “n00b” to the ideas normally discussed on this site. Or am I wrong, and you too can see that there is NO STATE because there is NO DUTY TO PROTECT? In which case, please accept my confusion and advanced apology.

  41. Pete Says:

    @Adam: You’re a great writer, and apparently really good at looking up wikipedia entries about martial arts without any personal first hand knowledge of fighting. You’re also good at avoiding key issues and using smokescreen ad hominem counter-attacks. I am not an expert, but I’ve done my homework on this issue and I think I’ve come to good conclusions. I haven’t been in a fight since 8th grade (brutal loss – body slammed headfirst on asphalt after a failed Chuck Norris kick attempt while wearing wranglers). I formally trained in BJJ and MMA off and on from 2004 to 2009 (work schedule permitting), and I still do excercises with a training dummy at home. I helped a Brazillian friend start his own BJJ academy here in Wisconsin in 2008.

    Prior to this I trained briefly in Korean Tae Kwon Do before realizing it is essentially useless in a real conflict.

    I chose Jiu-Jitsu because I wanted to learn a technique that would really work to defend myself and my family in a real, no rules, chaotic, unrehearsed street fight, robbery, home invasion, or whatever. I knew that real fights often ended in a struggle on the ground (either by accident or design) so I wanted to learn a style that teaches how to fight back from all disadvantaged positions. It was never my intent to study philosophy or spirituality in fight situations.

    If you are truly interested in the effectiveness of Aikido, PLEASE watch this video of Aikido’s founder demonstrating the techniques from 1935. This vid is about 10 minutes long, but it should only take you a couple minutes to decide whether this looks like phony, pro-wrestling BS, or a useful self-defense system. My favorite action is the 5 against 1 techniques at 6:04…the Aikido techniques look very similar to the devastating style used by Eddie Murphy in the final fight scene of “Bowfinger.”

    If you think like me, you will watch this video and come to the same conclusion I did: “People who spend (waste) years of time studying this so-called martial art have poor reasoning skills.”

    @Adam: I’ve found that these discussions about martial arts tend to get stuck in endless, “My Dad is tougher than your Dad” debates.

    Lets make things interesting: For every video you can produce of an Aikido practitioner surviving the attacks of a BJJ expert (brown belt or higher) without submitting for at least 3 minutes of non-stop conflict, I will donate one ounce of pure silver each to Marc Stevens and Clif High (max ten ounces total – five ounces each).

    Maybe if you contact the many “true martial artists” you’ve met, they can provide you help finding these elusive videos that I’ve spent almost a decade searching for.

    Better yet…we could arrange to have Clif High battle a BJJ expert in his area. If he survives three minutes without submitting, I’ll donate all ten ounces of silver to Clif. I’ll only do this if both parties agree to have it filmed and posted on internet.

    You decide and let us know, okay, Adam?

  42. jzbkr Says:

    I found myself less impressed by Mr. High by the end of the show than the beginning. It seemed like he was intent on re-defining words like violence and aggression to the point that they are useless in communicating important ideas. Even if he is correct on the the original definitions, returning to them doesn’t allow us meet people at their map of the world (As Marc says) The anecdotes on flying for free and outside of the TSA were pretty useless and the World Govt idea is just another fiction. Mr High said we are in a collective like it or not but I didn’t hear any evidence that there was any duty to or right granted to the collective.

  43. NonE Says:

    WOW, Pete, your d*ck really IS bigger than Adams! Cool! Can I touch it? No, wait… maybe not.

    – NonE

  44. NonE Says:


    I see you’ve been taking lessons from NonE on how to piss of the entire universe without even trying. And getting high marks, too. 🙂

    – NonE

  45. NonE Says:

    of—>off (sigh)

  46. Aaron Says:

    Ive been through the process of seperating the idea of using violence to make things happen and holding true to nonagression principles – its not
    always easy.

    Maybe “universe” doesnt want Mr. High to realize that being “born under a bad sign” (can’t help but to think Albert King or Cream hahaha)is not a rational excuse to embody the warrior archetype.

    I don’t see how being a “citizen of the world” is really effective. Maybe if all the members swore some duty to protect each other? Anyway, if aliens are coming to colonize then….riiiiight, is that even valid?

    Here is a short list of guests for your consideration:
    Richard Alan Miller (if you could keep his attention focused on ideas of voluntarism)
    Brent Johnson (check out Truth Frequency Radio archives – would be interesting to have him flesh out some of his solutions/ideas)
    Dean Clifford (ways to use the system in one’s favor?)
    Stefan Molyneaux (a discussion between you guys about activism would be dreamy)

    Activism-how to resist? Theres alot to be explored there.

  47. NonE Says:

    Aaron sed: Dean Clifford (ways to use the system in one’s favor?)
    Isn’t that the point of “the system” at all times and in all places? Narcissism without empathy (I’m being redundant I’m pretty sure) seems to me to BE the problem, not the solution to it.

    And as for “dreamy” Stefan, you need to study the man a bit more. (choke, hack, cough cough gag…) He espouses some good ideas, but he’s completely devoid of honesty and integrity. It’s like equating Obama with the “HOPE” and “CHANGE” posters which allow you to create whatever you want in your mind, regardless of the reality of the man.

    – NonE

  48. NonE Says:


    Apologies for being totally negative above… I like your thoughts at the beginning of the post. 🙂

    – NonE

  49. Aaron Says:

    No need for apologies, I think I was too general in [using the system].
    Maybe more along the line of damage control tactics…I will certainly study Stefan more, care to post a few shortcuts along that path? Ill see what I can find concerning his honesty and integrity – I havent come across anything, though Ive only explored the info he presents. I don’t find the man dreamy, hahhaha, though the idea of putting the 2 minds (Marc-Stefan) together, maybe along the lines of practical activism and consistent principles – would be very interesting.

  50. NonE Says:


    Regarding Stefan, do a search for Liberating Minds forum (forumotion ?) and spread out from there. I’ve been long away from all thoughts Stefan, so I don’t have good pointers, but he treated me personally very shabbily and that is just scratching the surface.

    – NonE

  51. Aaron Says:

    Ill check it out-I like to keep an open mind.

  52. Adam Says:

    Pete please settle down, you’re not in any danger here of losing your silver. I don’t feel like Youtube sparring. Actually I agree, if asked, that Brazilian jiu-jitsu is an excellent form and as everyone knows it has proven itself to be one of the most formidable in the world. That’s not the point I was trying to make. It’s not necessary to have a pissing contest over which system is better, that’s a personal choice obviously. My problem was with the way you felt the need to bash one way over another and to use that as some kind of measure of intelligence. It doesn’t work like that. Different studies for different results.
    Would you try to cut down a tree with a hammer or would you use an ax. Developing the mind is as important or, even more important to me, as developing the body. For instance when I was younger and spent a lot of time in dojos (fyi: Ho Kuk Mu Sul – Wing Chun – Jeet Kune Do – Tai Chi – Chi Kung – Aikido in that order ) Notice the progression into what is called “internal martial arts”. So you can see my interest is more towards spirit/mind.

    The point I was trying make, that is obviously getting lost here, was that Aikido is about much more than just learning how to kick ass. Its about refining spirit, body and mind.
    If all you want to do is be a bad ass and bash heads then Brazilian jiu-jitsu is an excellent school for that. Funny, do you notice the similarity in spelling jūjutsu / jiu-jitsu… hmmmm?

    Congratulations on your ability to spot a Wiki quote. I didn’t feel like digging through boxes of books to find my copy of ‘Budo’ by Morihei Ueshiba.

  53. Nomos Says:

    [Sorry Marc, but this seemed fitting and in need of accompanying this page under the circumstances.]

    “The true martial art should not be mistaken for a simple combat sport. A rudimentary sign or a symbol can often express what a long speech cannot. The ideograms designating the martial arts are identical in China and Japan; only the pronunciations are different. The Chinese say wu shu, the Japanese bujutsu. The translation ‘martial art,’ or the ‘art of combat,’ is a partial betrayal of the spirit of the original ideogram, which can be broken down into two characters meaning ‘to stop’ and ‘spear’ First conceived of as the “art of sopping the spear,” the martial arts still derive much of their essential meaning from this original definition, all the more so since this formula can be interpreted simultanepously as the “art of stopping the spear of one’s adversary’ and the ‘art of stopping one’s own spear.’ It is the great art of outter pacification and inner harmony.”

    Pascal Fauliot. Martial Arts Teaching Tales of Power and Paradox – Freeing the Mind, Focusing Chi, and Mastering the Self

  54. Marc Stevens Says:

    Maybe we could have a few matches at the next libertopia? Though my original idea was to have matches between voluntaryists and statists, anarchists against cops.

  55. NonE Says:

    Nomos, Pete, Adam, et all,

    I just listened to a wonderful story on RadioLab which pertains, in a fashion, to the subject being argued/debated/thrashed-about here. It is at the following link and the story I’m referencing starts at 8:09 minutes into the program. Enjoy!

    – NonE

  56. Nomos Says:


    So the moral of the story is don’t get old, senile and bitter over words, because symbols cause the same confusion?

    J/k, that was an amazing story.

  57. NonE Says:

    Glad you liked it, Nomos. I thought it was quite wonderful in spite of the anguish he ended up dealing with.

    And now, for a wonderful musical interlude…

    – NonE

  58. Thad Says:

    off topic, but any advice for a upcoming hearing I have that I filed for parenting order. I am totally lost and any advice would be great.

  59. Marc Stevens Says:

    @ Thad, I have no context. I’m back Monday if you’d like to set up a phone consult.

  60. NonE Says:

    Marc Stevens Says:
    December 28th, 2012 at 8:44 pm

    @ Thad, I have no context. I’m back Monday if you’d like to set up a phone consult.
    Or you could have him get together with Bruce, the (lack of) context thing probably wouldn’t be an issue! 😉 No ill will intended, I just couldn’t help myself! I’m evil. But hey, if the foo shits… 🙂

    – NonE

  61. Adam Says:

    Thanks for the great link to the RadioLab. Those stories are excellent illustrations of the intricacies of not only understanding communication but also life in general. I really liked the entheogenic story in the show as well. That pertains directly to my area of psychonautic experience and research. For myself, I agree with Socrates.

    “The unexamined life is not worth living.”

  62. NonE Says:

    “I really liked the entheogenic story in the show as well. That pertains directly to my area of psychonautic experience and research.”

    I agree with Steve Jobs. One particular mescaline experience I had is perhaps the most important experience of my life. This war against personal freedom and personal inquiry is absolutely criminal. I think it, and all aggression, is based in fear. An open mind collects no fear. Glad you enjoyed. By the way, if you are not aware of him, you may enjoy Jan Irving’s (not a blanket recommendation, but a hearty one.)

    – NonEntheogenicallyImpaired

  63. dan gould Says:

    I am shocked! NonE is an evil imposter!

  64. Aaron Says:

    I dont want to be purely critical of Mr. High – his past work has opened up some great ideas for me – including vegetarianism, kettle bell, and I have some nice sections of lemon balm growing now.
    Concerning you psychonauts : anyone have any exp. w/datura? A volunteer sprouted up in the Summer and ive got enough seeds to send me pushing daisies.
    GnosticMedia has some awesome content, as well as the PeaceRevolution Podcasts if one has the time to go thru those. Irving’s breakthrough research into Terence McKenna, Wasson, Castenada, et al and their “establishment” connections is pretty exciting.

  65. Barbara Says:

    I appears pretty clear here…there is a major difference in age between Clif and the “hosts” of the show…therefore…experience seems to be on the side of Clif…over time, the “hosts” will grow up and understand what it is Clif High is about!

  66. Calvin Says:

    @Barbara: There have been other comments from people who have never been to this site who *think* we don’t know what we are talking about. 😕 Those who state we don’t know what we were talking about have FAILED to inform us what it was that we were so clueless on, please elaborate and educate.

    How were we not grown up? What are we not understanding about Clif?

    As far as experience; Marc, JT, and I have been to court too many times and have accumulated a good amount of experience to base the issues that we brought up during the show on… which is kind-of relevant considering its a bit of proof of the theory in action. Are you experienced?

    Not that I was paying attention when listening to Clif’s WuJo series, but I think that he openly invited others with different ideas to “meet on the mat” to discuss such differences to (hopefully) learn from each-other.

    Not that I was paying attention when listening to the WuJo talk about followers of the cult of personality, but let’s try not to be so emotional with the baseless responses when someone intellectually challenges another’s propositions. Lets stick to the facts and go from there. Please, no more baseless accusations; save it for the bureaucrats. 😉

  67. NonE Says:

    Or senility will win out. One or the other…

    – NonE

  68. Mike Says:

    Started off well talking about the exponential process, but then went downhill from there and got progressively worst. I gave up when he started to talk about UFO’s being real.

    He’s obviously intelligent, but he himself is stuck in a certain paradigm.

  69. NonE Says:

    Aw Calvin, come on now! What would life be like without baseless allegations?

    – NonE

  70. Marc Stevens Says:

    @ Barbara, Why do you put the word host in quotes? I have an idea about that, just want you to clarify for me.

  71. NonE Says:

    Say Calvin, something I just thought of… you should be PLEASED, without baseless allegations there would not be anything for Marc to do and we’d not have any reason to get together here on the interweb pipes and bicker with each other. Now where would the fun be in that! And Marc would have to get a REAL job! 😉

    – NonE

  72. Deltajent Says:

    Just got around to listening to the podcast and enjoyed the comments following, but I can’t say I enjoyed the guest. I have never heard of Clif High so I had no preconceived opinions, but this first exposure didn’t inspire me to look further.

    First of all, for me, people who continually interrupt in a conversation and talk over others are both rude and very annoying. Such behavior shows a lack of respect for others and gives the impression that the speaker considers his own opinions to be so much more valuable that he virtually shoves the other person out of the way in order to dominate the conversation. Looks like aggression to me.

    Next, High’s style is 100% pure conman: claiming extraordinary expertise, using shifting/non-standard word definitions, off-the-wall theories, deflection, distraction, avoidance. I have run into far too many of these people to have any patience for such types.

    Anyone who sincerely wishes to communicate with others will provide definitions for words used in a way that is not commonly known or accepted. Those who wish to impress others with his superior knowledge and intellect will do just as High did on this show. When presenting new or highly specialized concepts to a lay audience, don’t use common terms that you should know will be misinterpreted, unless you want to gain an advantage by keeping your audience off balance. Lawyers are notorious for this technique.

    Most of what he said impressed me as just plain silly: Forming a thought–thinking–is violence? Ridiculous! And don’t tell me I’m just not smart enough to “understand” him. I haven’t survived as long as I have by getting Wait and Walk mixed up.

    Finally, I got the impression that High has little familiarity with anarchist/voluntaryist principles, so his entire world-citizen statist style presentation seemed rather inappropriate for the NSP crowd. It would have been much more instructive if his ignorance and misconceptions had been challenged.

    I was disappointed that Marc didn’t directly challenge him on some of his more outlandish statements, but Marc is always the gentleman with his guests and bends over backwards not to be rude, so I can forgive him…this time ;>) I do hope that if High returns the “hosts” will do a better job of pinning him down and not let him ramble around making a mockery of the English language as a means of communication. But honestly I wouldn’t be disappointed if he never came back.

  73. tirtha Says:

    Interesting conversation. Marc was great and so was Cliff. It seems that both are trying to get to the same point by different ways. It got a little off the topic at the end, but an interesting side topic. I agree that there is violence and non-violence that must work side by side. Gandhi was shot. King was shot. I like Marc’s approach and Cliff’s. I think Marc rounded it up nicely. Congrats on a Great Talk. Just wonder always why the spiritual take is not brought up in all this. Is it that the spiritual viewpoint is seen as impractical or ethereal. Whatever, I kind of wish we could bring in that viewpoint also, maybe that is what the “common law” brings in…Thanks again.

  74. Vanmind Says:

    Thanks, Marc, for having that guy on. It’s been quite a while since I’ve had such a good laugh at a Change Agent.

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